Episode 3: What is my purpose without children?
We loved this month’s question because it was so raw, and it’s a topic every woman we know has grappled with on some level: maternity. Whether it’s to become a mother or not, dealing with miscarriages and feeling in some way broken, or not wanting kids and being made to feel by society, somehow, broken too.
They write:
I live in Victoria, born in Namibia. 63 and never had children purely by circumstance and then later by choice. So often people feel children give them purpose but what do I have to say? The childless one... would love to hear other people's thoughts on this.
-The childless one
We often don’t talk about all our struggles around maternity. It’s often steeped with so much shame. This question hit so powerfully because the childless one, so bravely and matter-of-factly says, in essence, “I don’t know” in a world where we all feel like we are supposed to know, with such certainty, all the time.
Jackie is sitting down with Talia who grew up always assuming she’d have children, but over the years, allowed herself the space to question what she truly wanted for her life, to say “I don’t know” and the freedom to make a new choice, to not to have children. Her meandering path was full of gentleness, full of intention, and just full of love for herself and her community. Jackie and Talia share their personal journeys around deciding whether or not to become mothers. This conversation is raw and powerful and we hope it opens up an opportunity for continued conversation on a subject that is so often ignored. We hope you got something helpful out of this…if anything, know that you’re not alone. You see, we all struggle, mourn, yearn, question, laugh and cry. No matter our age, background, or titles, at our core, we are all not so different, You & I.
And make sure to tune in until the end of the episode to hear the question for next month. And if you have had the same personal experience and are interested in being a guest of that episode, OR if you have a short word of wisdom, write to us on the contact page on our Website or DM us on Instagram. And of course, please submit your questions there too.
Episode Resources:
Jackie Kai Ellis: Website / Instagram
Talia: Instagram
More Good Media: Website / Instagram
You & I Podcast: Website
Resources on finding trusted professional help can be found here.
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INTRO:
Welcome to You & I.
I am Jackie Kai Ellis and it’s my genuine hope that through sharing our most vulnerable stories, we know, in the moments where it matters so much, that we are not alone.
DISCLAIMER:
It needs to be said, I am not a professional, just someone with some personal experience to share. I do hope this is helpful, but as always, take the advice that resonates and ignore what doesn't. And don’t hesitate to seek out professional help through a trusted source. There are resources on our website.
THIS MONTH’S QUESTION:
I loved this month’s question because it was so raw, and it’s a topic every woman I know has grappled with on some level: maternity. Whether it’s to become a mother or not, dealing with miscarriages and feeling in some way broken, or not wanting kids and being made to feel by society, somehow, broken too.
They write:
I live in Victoria, born in Namibia. 63 and never had children purely by circumstance and then later by choice. So often people feel children give them purpose but what do I have to say? The childless one... would love to hear other people's thoughts on this.
The childless one
We often don’t talk about all our struggles around maternity. It’s often steeped with so much shame. This question hit me so powerfully because the childless one, so bravely and matter-of-factly says, in essence, “I don’t know” in a world where we all feel like we are supposed to know, with such certainty, all the time.
GUEST:
And this is exactly what today’s guest, Talia Kleinplatz, teaches us: that “I don’t know” is also a perfect place to be.
Talia grew up always assuming she’d have children, but over the years, allowed herself the space to question what she truly wanted for her life, to say “I don’t know” and the freedom to make a new choice, to not to have children. Her meandering path was full of gentleness, full of intention, and just full of love for herself and her community.
Here’s Talia.
Jackie: [00:00:00] Hi, Talia. Thank you so, so much for being my guest on this episode. I know that it's not an easy question to tackle. And it's a little scary, actually, this one, but I kind of like it for that reason. But tell me how you feel about this question. Whoo, I see
Talia: y'all. Uh, I feel like it's really important, um, and I'm really honoured to get to be in a position to have this conversation with you.
Um, and it makes me so nervous. Uh, it makes me so nervous because Choices around parenthood, um, are so deeply personal and at the same time so deeply political. And I feel really committed to kind of honouring the full spectrum of those experiences, while also kind of speaking to my own experience and choices around, uh, deciding not to have children.
So just wanting to make sure that [00:01:00] people feel seen and heard and understood in all their experiences, um, and choices around those.
Jackie: Yeah, and we were just saying too that our intention, they align and it's really that whatever choice a person has made for themselves in this realm of their life is purely their own and that they should be proud and happy and never feel, um, or be made to feel ashamed of the choices that they've made for any reason.
I think, and I think that's our intention for this episode is just really to make sure that everyone. is honored. Yeah, let's begin. Okay, so you Did you always know that you didn't want kids? No. In
Talia: fact, for the majority of my life, I knew that I did want kids. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So, I was one of those people that, um, when [00:02:00] I was quite young, I was like, I am put on this earth to be a mother.
And I wanted to hang out with baby cousins and babysit and hang out with Babies all the time. Like, it was just, it felt so, um, innately what I was here to do. And that stuck with me for a really, really long time. So I did, I did not, I was, I did not come into the world thinking that I wouldn't be a parent.
I came into the world thinking absolutely that I
Jackie: would. And how long did that last for? Like, at what age did you have the inklings that maybe you wouldn't have kids? And what were those inklings? Like, what was the catalyst to thinking about not having kids? So,
Talia: I actually, uh, I started dating, uh, my current partner when I was 19 years old, and he did not want to have children.
Like really, really clearly had had that feeling for a long time. [00:03:00] And we were young enough that I was like, Oh, like this doesn't really need to be an issue right now. Um, but I knew. Um, that if I wanted to stay with him, um, that it would become an issue at some point. Um, that choice would be put on the table.
And I think there were a few things that I started grappling with, um, around that time. And one was that I started to realize that I had really idealized having children. And I, I was so kind of drawn to hanging out with babies. Without necessarily thinking about the 18 years that come after babyhood slash lifetime that come after babyhood that you're committed to this other person.
Um, and everything that that entails in terms of, uh, time, devotion, money, care. And, and I started to really grapple with whether or not I felt I had it in [00:04:00] me to do all of those things as opposed to just kind of this like small. Um, snippet of what it meant to care for a young person. And I think the other thing that I was really, um, grappling with was this thing that my mom had always told me, um, and it really instilled in me from a young age, which was give, always give yourself the space to make a second choice.
And what she meant by that was really giving myself the freedom to dip my toe and try something out, and if it didn't work for me, that I could always change my mind. And I lived a lot of my life by that, and it gave me a lot of comfort to know that I could always change my mind about something. And when I started to think about, like, really, when I started to approach the time where it would have been more appropriate for me to be thinking about my choices around parenthood, I realized that this was the one area in my life where I couldn't do that.
Where there, if I decided to have a kid, there was no room to make a second choice. Um, not for me. And that if I was going to do that, I would have [00:05:00] to not just dip my toe in, but jump in wholeheartedly and embrace that role. And, um, so I started to really more seriously consider whether or not that
Jackie: was for me.
And at what point did you decide, for sure, and what was that like? And did you have, I have so many questions, and did you have to mourn the loss? I assume that you would, because I know when I, when I had decided not to have children, which I ended up having a child, but when I decided not to have children, I, I really mourned that loss, like it was like a death to me in a way.
I'm wondering if you went through a similar experience.
Talia: Yeah, um, I don't think that I moved towards I don't want to have children, but I moved away from the certainty that I did, if that makes sense, and, and more, more started to move towards I'm not sure this is for me. I don't know if this is for me. I'm okay with sitting in the unknown of that.[00:06:00]
At the same time, my partner was willing to move more towards my end of the spectrum of like, okay, like, if this is something that's important, I'm willing to consider it. And we both kind of started moving where we hit this kind of center point of like, I don't know. You know, both of us kind of sat in this, I don't know, for a long time.
Um, and I think my feeling was always, you know, until, until I feel like I want a kid more than I want the life that I'm living right now, I'm just going to wait. Because I knew that having, obviously having children comes with sacrifices and big changes in your life, and I, I really valued the life that I was living and didn't feel like I was ready to have that change in really big ways.
And I think the time that I started to grapple with it more, like in the, in the, I'm probably not going to do this way, was as I hit my mid thirties and that like stereotypical biological clock is [00:07:00] ticking now, you know, we know that people have babies well into their forties, sometimes into their fifties, and that's like a normal, perfectly normal.
experience these days. Um, and at the same time I started to just become more aware of the fact that like there was more of a ticking clock on this. And I think that that's when I kind of moved towards the possibility that this was likely not going to be something that I was going to do. Um. And definitely experienced some periods of grief and also some periods of joy around both of those things because not having kids, um, allowed me to step into a lot of different things, but not having kids also moved me to say goodbye to something that I had actually thought I was going to do for a really, really long time.
I really appreciate the organic and fluid process of it all because it never felt like, it never felt like, oh, I'm with a partner who doesn't want to have [00:08:00] kids, so I'm not going to have kids. It really felt like it was an internal grappling movement within me that just kind of came about quite organically for me.
And, and of course, like, even as I moved towards a choice that felt really congruent with what I wanted, that was always going to come with
Jackie: grief, you know. Um, I remember,
Talia: I think it was maybe the first Mother's Day in the pandemic. I think I had like, like an actual intense grief episode of like, I'm, this day is never going to be for me.
You know, and we've talked about this before in terms of like these internalized messages as, as, um, cis women in the world around our role to be mother and caregiver and nurturer and all of these things. And I think I started a, I'm not. impervious to internalizing those messages and beyond that day I really [00:09:00] started to question my worth.
What is, what is my worth if not these things that society tells me that I should value it be as a cis woman and it was a, it was a tension between like my intellectual brain and kind of these internalized messages all at the same time.
Jackie: And they're so powerful too. As much as we Well, I'll speak for myself.
As much as I feel like this woman who has tried my best to break the boundaries of gender roles That I watched my mom and my grandmother play out, which, of course, they were playing gender roles out, but they were also extremely powerful women, which is also kind of a gender role, in a sense, that powerful woman that does everything, does the raising of the children and the one that goes out and, and, um, and makes [00:10:00] money.
And as much as I tried to break those things, It's amazing how many of these unconscious messages filter into just our bodies, not our minds, not our logical minds, but the amount of, for example, mother guilt that I feel that I never thought that I would feel. But I think that in itself is actually linked to this question, which is, I feel mother guilt because I feel like my purpose should be my child when it isn't.
Yeah. Not to say I don't love him, like, immensely. It's that same idea that somehow we're filtered this message that our worth as women is through childbearing.
Talia: Yeah. And I, I also think about, I mean, just want to like pause and honor what you just said because that's so incredibly [00:11:00] important and profound and, and just thinking how , even as somebody who's chosen not to parent, how have I internalized those messages around being a nurturer or being a care?
You know, I work in, I, every, almost every field that I have worked in has been in a caregiving field, right? Mm-Hmm. , that's interesting. Um, that I have even in my choices to not care for my own biological children. I have stepped into caring roles and, uh, you know, I. It's always that question between nature and nurture and culture and societal expectations that I, I will probably never get to the bottom of, but it, it does intrigue me that I've always kind of Um, moved in the direction of carer roles and nurturer [00:12:00] roles, um, even in my choices to not do that in, in the role of
Jackie: parent.
Back to the, the journey that you had to decide not to take on that, the actual. Child caring role dawned on me is that it just felt so like such an ongoing and gentle process to it wasn't as abrupt or so finite. It's not some huge proclamation. It was this very spacious process of um, uh, Allowing yourself to meander through the decision of that, which I think is so crucial, I think, for people who are struggling with the decision of whether or not to have children, is that, especially with that timeline in the back of your head, is that it doesn't have to feel like, um, an invasive decision that is torturing you every day, [00:13:00] but it gives space for your own personal growth as a human being, apart from being a mother or woman.
Well,
Talia: and coming, you know, even now, even now as I say, like, I've chosen not to have children and I'm not going to do that. I still hear my mom's voice in the back of my head of, always give yourself the space to make a second choice, right? And so knowing that, like, even now that door could open. At any point, and me say I'm actually going to make a different choice about that, you know, like it feels so, in some ways it feels so unfinal, even though like I continue to make the choice to not be a parent, it has felt, um, I like your wording, it has felt really gentle, and I remember even a point, probably, I don't know, maybe around when I was 35 or 36, and my husband and I were talking about this, and he said, you know, Instead of telling everybody that we're not going to have kids, why don't we spend a [00:14:00] year telling people that we don't know, and just see how that sits.
Like, just, just play with it. Play with the idea of whether or not this might be something that we would want to explore, instead of it being like an absolute yes or an absolute no. Like, play with the maybe of it, and see how that sits. And it was just like, again, that really slow way to kind of, Come to a decision together that felt congruent.
Jackie: That's so beautiful. The idea that I don't know is a perfectly legitimate answer and that there's nothing more to it. It's just, I don't know. End of discussion. I, I think that's, gosh, don't we just all put so much pressure on ourselves to know maybe the pressure comes from outside in, but maybe it's also the [00:15:00] discomfort.
of being in the unknown that forces us to prematurely make decisions that maybe we're not just ready to make, too.
Talia: Well, and I, I think back to those days of being so certain that I was going to be a parent and whether or not that certainty was some, like, innate part of me that really wanted to be a mother.
Or whether it had to do with the fact that I grew up in a space where that really felt like a given, right? Um, I grew up in a, uh, in a smaller city in southern Ontario, where I just, there was so much kind of hetero patriarchal normativity of you do this, then you do that, then you get married, then you buy a house, then you have your kid, right?
And again, there's like that in It's this kind of tension between what did I actually feel that I wanted to do versus what did I just grow up believing was my path, right? And I [00:16:00] think that I, I had the privilege of asking those questions. I had the privilege to pause and say like, wait a minute, what do I actually want?
Can I, can I actually pause and, and think about this as opposed to, um, following the path? Because I think it's where I'm supposed to go. And I, I'd also be remiss if I didn't say, you know, That having, having that choice and having that space is actually, is actually a privilege. And especially in the current, you know, reproductive political context that we're, we're living through.
Um, there are people that do not get to make this choice, right? Um, and so I, I'd be remiss if I didn't name that, like even having the choice around my reproduction and what I do and do not decide to do with my body is, is a privilege right now. Um, this idea of choice is [00:17:00] a privilege right now. You're
Jackie: so right.
It is such a privilege and I'm, and I feel like we live so many privileges just even being able to sit here and have the mental, emotional, physical space to question cultural norms as opposed to, uh, you know, for example, with my parents, they were just struggling to survive and Drew's struggling to put food on the table.
And so I feel like this and this conversation in itself is, is a privileged conversation on so many levels.
Talia: The privilege of getting to make that choice and to question, right? And you know, it was, it was interesting and I share this with consent. I actually did check beforehand, but I, I was talking to my mother before this call because I was super, even when you asked me to do this, this podcast, I wonder what my mother would say about this question and about whether or not I was her purpose, [00:18:00] you know?
And. She was telling me, you know, she grew up at a time like her reproductive age came at a time where Abortion was just becoming legal in Canada and legal meant that if you wanted to have one, you had to stand up in front of a panel of male doctors and they could grant you or not grant you an abortion, right?
And so we're in this very, I mean, you and I have grown up in this very unique time of, um, having a lot more choice around reproduction and we're moving, you know, in terms of the current context. I know in Canada it's a little bit different. But just, just aware of that.
Jackie: Yeah. The cultural norms thing.
Agreed. I, too, went through a similar experience where it wasn't so much a decision to start undoing some of those [00:19:00] expectations or, or those unchallenged, um, societal. Sort of the progression of life that people typically go through or they think that they should be going through and it wasn't until my ex husband Decided after a few years of marriage that he no longer wanted kids because I grew up in a very similar Environment where I was like, I'm gonna be a mom.
I'm probably gonna have two to three kids I never stopped to question whether or not that was something I truly wanted Or if it was a desire that was placed on me, or maybe both, who knows. Um, and it wasn't until he said, no, I actually changed my mind, I don't want kids. And it took me a year to decide whether or not I was going to stay in the marriage, or whether or not this was a deal breaker.
I decided to stay because I was thinking if I were to leave this [00:20:00] marriage for this reason, pressure of that sacrifice on my future children. would be a little bit unfair. And also, whoever I chose to marry next, knowing that there was a little bit of unfinished business in my past, Wouldn't have been fair to the future partner either.
And I was like, well, I'm in this. And so can I conceive of the possibility that I will never have children? And so I decided to stay in the marriage and put the plan of having kids to the side. And it was only then that I even allowed myself to start. thinking about what life could look like, even the possibility of life.
And I, and we had no examples of what that looked like back then. You know, back in 2005, there [00:21:00] were very few examples. I was like, well, I think I had an aunt once and she traveled a lot. So that's kind of cool. And it wasn't until that point that I started going, Oh, well then maybe I'll go to Paris and study pastry.
Well, then maybe I'll, you know, and not to say that this is what happens to everyone who, whose husband says, Oh, I don't want to have kids anymore. But I have to say that that for me was a moment of sheer grace because it caused me to really define what it was that I wanted my life to look like. And now my life does include a child.
And I've chosen that very, very deliberately, and accepted it with so much joy, because I know this is exactly what I want, not just because I've never really thought about it. [00:22:00] In a moment, Talia's going to share her thoughts on her purpose in life. But first, a word from our non profit partner. Each month, we ask our guests to share an organization that is dear to their hearts, so that we can spread their message to our listeners.
as a small thanks to them and to our community. And don't forget to tune in later, where we're going to share our next month's question, so that if you feel inspired to share your advice with the asker, you can send us your story and your words of wisdom. Now our last guest, Sandra, chose the Association of Neighbourhood Houses of BC.
They believe in promoting strong, vibrant neighbourhoods by fostering community connection. And by responding to the needs of growing or changing communities in a place based, holistic way. Each neighbourhood house across Metro Vancouver is a special place where neighbours create welcoming, safe and comfortable spaces for all members of the [00:23:00] community.
Everyone from youth to seniors, newcomers to long time residents can find a sense of belonging at their local neighbourhood house. Neighbourhood houses recognize that, as individuals, we all grow when we have an opportunity to give as well as receive. To find a neighbourhood house near you, or give back to one today, visit anhbc.
org. Now back to Talia. We talk a little bit about purpose. Oh boy. Yeah. It's a, it's a biggie. But the childless one talks about how children give them purpose and she says, but what do I have to say? I'm the childless one. What do you think your purpose is?
Talia: So I've been grappling with this during the [00:24:00] past couple weeks because I think the honest, the most honest answer that I can give you is I've never considered it.
Jackie: Wait, wait, wait, wait, what? I mean, you know me. I am all about like defining my purpose to a fault. Like, genuinely, I just need to like take a backseat sometimes and just like chill out. But wow, okay, tell me more. Um,
Talia: I'd never, I'd never considered it in the most literal sense of like, what is my purpose here? And I think that my life has been guided a lot by what, like, places that I feel aligned in places that were things that give me meaning, but I, I would be, I would be lying if I answered this question and said like, Oh yeah, like I knew my purpose was this, or I knew my purpose was that, or when I decided that [00:25:00] my purpose was not being a mother, I decided that my purpose was this.
It's actually just not a question that I have, I have had. And so I really, I've really been like considering this over the past week because I still wanted to answer. I still wanted to answer honestly. And I think that what gives me purpose or what where I find some meaning, at least lately, because I think that those things have changed multiple times over my life, is really considering, uh, what it means to be in community with people.
Um, what it means to build community, what it means to stay in community, what it means to show up for my community. And how to foster, how to foster those relationships with people in my life. I think is where my focus is right [00:26:00] now. And I have thought about this in relation to, because I'm, I'm actually surrounded by community that has made the choice to become parents.
And so I have these young people in my life. And what I have found is that I also intentionally want to build community with young people around me, right? That even if I, if I choose. Um, not to have kids of my own, that it doesn't mean that I don't want to build community and learn from and take joy in the young people that are a part of my community.
Um, this has really been modeled for me too by my, by my mother who, who doesn't have grandkids of her own, but has become a community grandmother then and has really intentionally fostered relationships with young people and I've seen what that has given to her. Um, and kind of this vitality that she derives from being in community with young people.
And so I've really [00:27:00] looked to that as a model of something that I think she offers back to her community, but also gives her a sense of connection and joy and, um, happiness in her life. Right.
Jackie: Yeah. I love that story of your mom. With teenagers coming over and really talking to her and having her be the safe space for things like coming out of the closet and like how scary that would be to talk to anyone else.
But knowing that you have this safe space that someone who you admire, respect, that you see as, um, someone who has wisdom, but also has your back, you know, that she could provide that for her, for the kids on her block. Like how [00:28:00] amazing.
Talia: It, it is amazing. And it's like, Again, I wouldn't say like, oh, that's my purpose, but it is a model of something that I want to be able to give to people in my community too, right?
That I, I want to be, I want to be a solid community member for the people around me, whether they're my age or older or young people. I want to, I want to be able to show up.
Jackie: And also this way of defining slash not defining your purpose is as gentle as when you decided to say the, I don't know for the year.
Or, that meandering discovery of your decision and who you are. This is the exact same gentleness and, uh, sense of exploration for your purpose that, you know, I like to define it in black and white and write it down on a piece of paper and then hammer [00:29:00] myself over the head over it. But it's so I'm loving this way of exploring life.
It's like, no, it doesn't need to be this. And again, same thing as what your mom said, give yourself the space to make this another choice. Yeah.
Talia: Well, and that purpose, purpose for me feels, or I guess, again, I'm not using the word purpose because again, I haven't woken up to that question, but those pockets where I find meaning are so fluid, you know, that it can change from day to day.
And to, and to allow that fluidity to show up and ebb and flow is really important to me too. That I don't need to, for me, it's important that I don't get fixed in one place, um, of defining myself one way, but that, that can change as I change, that can change as I learn new things. That can change as I meet new people.
That can change as I. As I find myself in new places, like it can be [00:30:00] just as fluid as any other part of me. Right. I'm so curious now about your purpose, Jackie
Jackie: Ellis. Oh gosh. I mean, I overthink this and I am, I'm probably gonna adopt a little bit more of that fluidity that you're talking about because I think I.
Honestly, bore myself with my own internal dialogue about my purpose. It's like, okay, got it. You got a purpose. Cool, cool. Um, I think my purpose, or at least what I would really like my life to have felt like at the end of it. Is that I felt free and by free, I mean free to be myself, the one at the core, the one that's not feeling or acting out of shame or fear.
[00:31:00] Or, um, as someone who's free to be vulnerable, knowing life's challenges and knowing that sometimes when you're vulnerable, yes, things hurt, but knowing that you felt free enough to express your inner truths, despite all of it, free from all the distractions that take us out of the present moment, the things that matter the most.
Like actually looking my child in his eyes and seeing him, you know, like I think for me right now at least the word free Would be the best description of my purpose or my goal I think in terms of like what I hope to accomplish through the things through my actions is That I [00:32:00] would love to live a life.
That is so solely mine And uniquely mine, that it might, well, I'll be super happy for one thing, but that maybe it would give someone else this sense of permission for them to do the same thing. And I think if I were to think of a purpose that has a greater reach than just me, that might, that might be it.
Again, in your mother's words, I'm going to give myself the space to change my mind. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't know. But I think that being a mother is my purpose. Yeah.
Talia: Well, I'm like, what a, um, I'm just gonna name that to me. I'm like, what a free instinct to me to, and like, what a way to, I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Because I think, [00:33:00] I think for, for people that derive purpose in motherhood, it's, it's wonderful. I don't take away from that at all. And I think that is sometimes as soon as you have a kid, the expectation can be that that is your purpose. Yes. And so to be able to name that it's not. It's just, I think that's vulnerability incarnate, to be honest,
Jackie: you know?
Yeah. I mean, I do, I do struggle with it. Feeling like if he isn't my everything, that I'm being a bad mother. And then I do have to challenge those thoughts because I'm like, well, where did this thought come from? And why is that thought there? And is that thought mine? And again, as you said before, if someone does genuinely feel that, and that is coming from their core, that their children give them that true [00:34:00] sense of, yes, this is why I'm here, then amazing.
But for me, I just had to challenge it and say, I think he is someone who challenges me to Um, live my purpose in a more genuine way, but he is not my purpose. And he definitely does that by, for example, never going according to my plan. They never do. They never do. And, you know, for someone who loves a plan, to have someone say, Hey, remember, you just got to go with the flow and remember.
Life is unexpected, sometimes in inconvenient ways, but sometimes in really beautiful ways. So, like, keep your eyes up. Stop, stop zoning out thinking you know what's going to [00:35:00] happen next, because you, you can't. And so, that idea that he, he challenges me to be more present and inspires me to be more present, I think.
Um, is part of my purpose, but what do you think of the childless one having no children and questioning maybe her purpose? I don't know if in her question she is questioning her purpose, but it feels like she, she is a little bit. Um,
Talia: I mean, I'll say welcome because clearly I, I have, uh, grappled or not grappled, probably not grappled with this question a lot.
Um, but I think that, and you and I had talked about this a little bit beforehand, but that purpose, whether you're a parent or not, can come from so many different places. So I [00:36:00] was, I had, I'm not making, I'm not trying to make this the Elaine podcast, but Elaine is the name of my mother. And of course, in the past couple of weeks, I've had lots of conversations with people and a conversation with her about this as well.
And I, I had said, you know, I think in a lot of ways, it was very freeing for me to not feel like I was my mother's. soul purpose because it modeled something for me. It modeled something for me that purposes can be
Jackie: multiple and
Talia: vast and wide and colorful. I think that regardless of whether or not children are in the picture, that that can be true.
And I've, I've been fortunate enough to have a really beautiful model of that. And it sounds like you're a really beautiful model for that of making, making purpose wider than one person or one thing or one relationship. Um, and so, I mean, maybe that's what I have to offer is just, [00:37:00] and maybe, maybe the question was also an invitation for me, right?
That it's just an invitation to kind of reflect on this, on this idea and figure out kind of as we've been talking about, about not, not going with what is expected. We're not going with the prescriptive path. But really taking that pause and coming back and saying, okay, like what, there's lots of places where I can derive purpose and meaning in life and what are those for me uniquely.
Jackie: Uh huh. And I remember I have a few friends who are a couple and they were trying for kids for a very, very long time and were getting really discouraged and really depressed and I don't want to take away from the process of that and it's how excruciatingly painful on so many levels it is to go through IVF and to go through [00:38:00] disappointment and allowing yourself to hope and.
feeling disappointed again and how much it tears you down as, as a person. But, a dinner one time and they seemed really light about it whereas before they seemed really heavy. And I said what happened and they said Um, they talked to a gay couple that they knew, and a lot of gay couples, um, having children isn't just a given.
And the possibility of having children is just not a given because it's very cost prohibitive and prohibitive on so many levels. And he was just like, yeah, and, and what if, and what if you don't have children? What will then?
And I think for them specifically, not to say that this would be the case for everyone, it freed them to feel like, oh, this isn't the end all and be [00:39:00] all, and I can have this and my life, or I can have my life, which may or may not include this, but my life is, it's still there, it still exists, and it's still valid, and it's still important.
And I still have space in this world that's very profound and crucial with or without children. To also talk about the fact that you're a doula on the side, which is, I feel like it needs to be mentioned because it's like, we're talking about children. You are a facilitator for birth as well. Yeah.
Talia: When I said that I, you know, every kind of Career path I've chosen for the most part is in like a nurturing, caring role, I meant it.
Yeah, and uh, doula ing is very much in line
Jackie: with that.
SEGUE
In a moment, Talia will share her thoughts on her purpose in life …but first, a word from our non-profit partner. Each month, we ask our guest to share an organization that is dear to their hearts, so that we can spread their message to our listeners as a small thanks to them and to our community.
TEASE NEXT Q: [music]
And don’t forget to tune in later, where we will share next month’s question, so that if you feel inspired to share your advice with the asker, you can send us your story and your words of wisdom
COMMERCIAL BREAK: [music under whole script]
Our last guest, Sandra, chose The Association of Neighbourhood Houses of BC.
Who believe in promoting strong, vibrant neighbourhoods by fostering community connection, and by responding to the needs of growing or changing communities in a place-based, holistic way.
Each neighbourhood house across Metro Vancouver is a special place where neighbours create welcoming, safe and comfortable spaces for all members of the community. Everyone from youth to seniors, newcomers, to long-time residents can find a sense of belonging at their local neighbourhood house.
Neighbourhood houses recognize that as individuals, we all grow when we have an opportunity to give as well as receive. To find a neighbourhood house near you, or give back to one today, visit anhbc.org
Now back to Talia
How did you fall into or [00:40:00] stumble into doula ing? Oh my gosh.
Talia: That was also the most meandering path. Um, I had for a long time had written a cocktail blog and had taken up photography as part of that work. And, um, so I'd honed my skills as a cocktail photographer.
And then one of the bartenders that I had photographed was getting married and was Like, Hey, can you come and photograph my wedding? You're such a good photographer. And I'm like, absolutely not. Photographing weddings is a totally different beast and I will not be doing that. But, uh, he did eventually talk me into it.
Um, and so I started to get into wedding photography and then a couple of my close friends, uh, were having babies and they invited me to come and photograph their births. And I knew nothing about birth, uh, I knew nothing about what it was like to have a baby but I knew I wanted to be there with [00:41:00] my friends as they were kind of crossing this monumental threshold and I, I was really honoured to get asked to be in that space with them.
And so in 2016, I went to my first birth as a photographer and I was just kind of, I don't even know what I thought had happened. I was just completely blown away. Uh, and then the following summer in 2017 I got invited to my second birth to come and photograph and after that I was just hooked. I was just like, I want to be in every birth space that I could possibly be in and I want to see this happen again and again and again and again and again, like just forever.
I just want to, I just want to see life come into the world.
Jackie: Interesting. What is the most impactful resonant lesson that you've learned? Oh boy.
Talia: I think that, I'm pausing because it's a big [00:42:00] question, um,
think that the biggest lesson that I learned, um, and this would have come from my mentor, Jessica, Jessica Austin, who, uh, she died in 2021. Um, She was my, she was my mentor. She became one of my best friends and I had the distinct honor of attending both her birth and her death. Oh, okay. And she said to me that there is so much fear wrapped up in birth and it actually has very little to do with birth.
It has to do with our fear of death. And so once we can release our fear of birth and our, we can simultaneously let go of our fear of death. And having been present for numerous births, and having been [00:43:00] present for a few people who have died, I've always been struck by how similar the process is on each end, and how much of an honor it is to Um, speaking with people in those kind of monumental transition points.
And so I think that the most important kind of profound lesson that I have learned from Jess and from those experiences is that when we release fear of one, we can actually let go of fear of the other.
Jackie: Um, wow. Is there anything that you would say to the childless one if they were sitting in front of you right now and they had just said this, asked you this question face to face?
What would you want? Uh, them to know. Oh my goodness.
Talia: I mean, I feel like, I feel like instead of wanting to share a lot, I just want to know so much about their story. You know? [00:44:00] Um, I want to pepper them with so many questions and have the conversation that you and I just had. How did you come to this? What was the path?
Did you always know you didn't want to have children? Did that shift for you? Is it still shifting? Because I think that sometimes the meaning making is in the dialogue, right? And so I find that I, I have found that in even considering this question that she asked, That I've had to dialogue with myself, that I've had dialogues with many people in my life over the past couple weeks, and that through those conversations is where I've kind of gotten a little bit more clarity.
And so I would just love to dialogue with them and, and hear their story and, and affirm that story and sit with it and be with it and honor it. And, and I, I don't want to make assumptions, but if the, if the implicit part of that question was, I don't know. [00:45:00] I don't know what my purpose is, but that's like a perfectly great place to be to.
The not knowing is part of it. You know, it has always been a part of it for me. It still is a part of it for me, that there's a lot of grace and quietness in the not knowing before we move to something else,
Jackie: you know? Yeah. And then there's also a beautiful way of living where, how do I say this? Just because you don't know what your purpose is, doesn't mean that you haven't already been living.
Every single day, and that each of those days didn't matter, and when you look at your own path, and how far you've come, and what impact you've made, and what you've done, and what you've said, and all the BYE BYE. Triumphs that you've had and the mountains you've climbed and the valleys that you've had to weather through that's not nothing.[00:46:00]
Talia: We've kind of already touched on this too is like word the word purpose or having a purpose might not be something that resonates with me or might not be something that I've considered in terms of a big question that I ask myself on a regular basis. Um, but my mom said something interesting, which was.
This kind of idea of intention versus purpose. And there can be intention that we bring into our life every day. And it's not that those things, purpose and intention, are not opposed. Obviously those things coexist. But that doing things with intention can bring a lot of meaning too. And that can be really small things
Jackie: every day.
Hello. Thank you so much. I know that we had talked about you being a little bit nervous that you wouldn't have anything to add to the conversation, but I can say that this time has proved you wrong. [00:47:00] I do appreciate you and you being open to this kind of vulnerable conversation. Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it. Dear Childless One, I once believed it was my purpose to have children. I remember sitting in the backseat of a car one summer afternoon. My little cousin had fallen asleep next to me on my right, and my mom was to my left. The sun was strong, and I could see my cousin frown just a little bit.
Every time the light splayed onto her eyes, I lifted a sweater above her so that her face was calmly in the shade of it. My arms grew tired, but I held it there as I watched vigilantly to make sure no spot of sun disturbed her sleep. The car had been quiet, but my mom said to me, You'll be a good mother one day.
Just there, I was flush with pride, [00:48:00] and my purpose was born. From a passing remark, over the years, up until my thirties, I prepared myself for motherhood. I made mental notes of how to hold a baby's neck when cradling them, or which brand of booties didn't fall off. I planned what would be in their lunchboxes when they went to school, always with a cool treat because I would be a cool mom.
On my first date with my ex husband, I wanted to be very clear about my goals, about my purpose. I actually said to him, look, I want kids, two or three of them. This is what I imagined for my life, the picket fence and all. If you don't want the same thing, we should probably just stop here. He said he did want the same thing, until he didn't, about four years into our marriage.
While we were saving for the picket fence and the house that went along with it, our first Christmas together, I bought these wooden blocks [00:49:00] for the child. I was supposed to have these toys with letters and animals on them. I had wrapped them in green paper in a gold bow and put it under the tree for this baby I had not yet met.
I did this for those four years, and then I stopped. All of a sudden, there was this enormous hole in my future where the baby had been. He had his reasons. I didn't blame him. I stayed for all the reasons I've already mentioned, but maybe, who knows, maybe I also stayed because what I knew was safer than what I didn't know.
We ended up traveling with all the money we'd set aside for these two or three kids, putting everything we owned into a garage. I re evaluated the fences, the booties, the babies. I made a new list of things I wanted to experience in my life. I went to pastry school in Paris. I unraveled the long ball of yarn of what I wanted my life to look like, [00:50:00] and on a blank slate I began to redraw a new picture with things that I would have been proud to say I did at the end of my life.
I worked hard to create a life that was so uniquely mine, that once I was passing a reflection of myself and was surprised because for the very first time in my life I actually liked what I saw. Our marriage ended eventually. It fell apart under the weight of time and silence. I opened a bakery, I made new lists of things I wanted to experience, and I did them all.
I was feeling completely myself and happy and without any regret for a life I could have lived because I was living one that I chose. Then one day, as I was cleaning out that old garage, I found the box of blocks wrapped in green paper tied with a gold bow. And I hurt. My body hurt. My [00:51:00] gut hurt. My throat.
It just winded me. I threw the blocks out. I threw it out because unwrapping the paper, packing it up in a car, driving it to a goodwill, and imagining it have a new life would have just been too much for me. I tossed it in a dumpster and then willed myself to move on. I share this because I want you to know that even though I made a choice, that even though I was living the exact life I wanted at the time.
It didn't mean that we don't still mourn the things that didn't come to pass. The things we once wanted so dearly. It doesn't mean we're not allowed to look back at the choices we made and wonder or imagine the what could have beens. And what if we are happy and proud of the life we've lived because we didn't have kids?
It doesn't mean we can't have the depth and [00:52:00] vastness to have empathy for the part of us that still longs for the life we once dreamt of. You see I don't think decisions are always a black and white yes or no. Sometimes we want both. But we want one just a little more than the other. And when we look back on our choices, the way we feel about them is also fluid, changing.
As we change, as we see more of the world, as we see more of ourselves in that unexpected reflection, I did end up having a child, this beautiful twist of fate. But for many years after I threw out those wooden blocks, I I imagined my life without kids, purely by circumstance, and then later by choice.
Childless one, I don't know how you feel when you look back on your life. I don't know how your purpose has evolved or changed over the years, if you [00:53:00] feel certain about your purpose now, or if like Talia, the meandering exploration of life holds more meaning for you than if you were to define it. And frankly, during those years after the wooden blocks, Even when I saw glimpses of an alternate life making me look back and wonder, in the moments I took the time to really look at my life, I knew I was okay.
I may have felt a whisper of regret, but I also knew that I would never have made a different decision. And though my life hasn't always felt great, if I were to go back, I likely would have chosen the exact same thing over and over. Knowing that what has spawned from all those big and small decisions have made a pretty good life.
My life. And I'm pretty proud of how I've turned out. And I have a sneaky suspicion. that you might feel the same way too.[00:54:00]
Thank you all for joining me for this episode of You and I, and thank you, Talia, for sharing such a loving and gentle way to see life's difficult decisions. It's been such a pleasure to explore your question, The Childless One. I really hope you got something out of this, but if anything, just know that you're not alone.
You see, we all struggle. We all mourn, yearn, question, laugh, and cry. No matter our age, background, titles, at our core. We're all not so different, you and I. And here's next month's question. How do you find the courage to speak with a therapist or find help in ways you might need, but don't feel worthy of?
If you feel inspired to respond to this asker and are interested in being a guest of this episode, Or if you have a [00:55:00] short word of wisdom for them, write to us on our contact page on un Die podcast.com or dmm us on Instagram at Un Die Podcast. And of course, as always, please do submit your questions there too.
If you enjoyed this episode, like and subscribe to our channel, which helps others who might be interested, find us. And feel free to share this episode with someone who may find it helpful as well. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm Jackie Kai Ellis, and here are some words of wisdom. Around the time I entered my late 30s, I cried every single time a friend told me they were pregnant and had decided to have children after all.
In my mind, we were a club. We were going to stick together and resist the cultural pressure. We grew old together and shared same life experiences. We lived the golden girl's dream. [00:56:00] I knew my tears indicated I had to sort my feelings out. This was no way to celebrate the major life moments of the people I loved the most.
So I sought professional help, and it was money well spent. I also spent a lot of time thinking about, if not that, then what was I going to do? How would I take advantage of the time and feel fulfilled? I still don't have the answers. But a lot of people
Talia: never
Jackie: find the perfect career either, and that's okay.
What I did do was I followed my curiosity around the subject, I listened to stories of other women, I made new friends without kids, I read books, articles, listened to podcasts, and everything I learned let me know that it was going to be okay. I may not find purpose as a mom, but I sure do as a cool aunt, or a special family friend, or a patient neighbor.
I also support women struggling with the same questions about motherhood that I had. [00:57:00] And it may feel a little scary, aging and transitioning to a life where career may no longer be the focus, or parents and siblings may no longer provide the support you traditionally had. But you've got this next stage too.
Explore your fears around that, connect with younger generations and really celebrate the road you've traveled so far. Hi, I'm Ashley and I wanted to share with you my journey. While I am NOT a mother, although I have thought
Talia: about it subconsciously, so much that I thought I'd even be
Jackie: a single parent, planning all of the avenues that would lead to being a mother has always been singular and waiting for the
Talia: opportunity to The right opportunity to present itself.
Jackie: The point is, no matter how hard I would've worked, I wasn't meant to be a mother. I'd had my own trauma, and [00:58:00] devastation, and healing to deal with, and that's a journey that did not evade me yet. I'm in love with life. And my partner whom I met when I
Talia: was 40. So much so that
Jackie: children aren't a part of the equation.
Any wisdom that I would offer is to
Talia: be patient with yourself, and your
Jackie: body, and especially your mind. Yourself, because you are only human, and life is so short to be unfulfilled or unhappy. Your body. Because, although it will sometimes fail you,
Talia: being here is truly a gift. And your mind.
Jackie: I can be my own worst enemy.
I can be impatient, but I always need to realize that it's the most important aspect of living a meaningful life, and I think that's probably what I recognized in being a mother. I met my partner when I was late in my 30s and approaching [00:59:00] my 40s. He and I are very content and happy with our lives. It's filled with laughter, and music, and books, and coffee, with each other, each morning.
Our careers, we get away on the holidays, we
Talia: celebrate our
Jackie: family's successes and our friends. We have that situation that I described, and it's meaningful to us. This podcast was produced and edited by More Good Media.
LETTER TO THE ASKER:
Dear Childless one,
I once believed it was my purpose to have children. I remember sitting in the backseat of a car one summer afternoon. My little cousin had fallen asleep next to me on my right, my mom to my left. The sun was strong and I could see my cousin, frown just a little, every time the light splayed onto her eyes. I lifted a sweater above her, so that her face was calmly in the shade of it. My arms grew tired but I held it there as I watched vigilantly to make sure no spot of sun disturbed her sleep. The car had been quiet, but my mom said to me, “you’ll be a good mother one day.”
I was flush with pride, and there, my purpose was born from a passing remark.
Over the years, up until my thirties, I prepared myself for motherhood. I made mental notes of how to hold a baby’s neck when cradling them, or which brand of booties didn’t fall off. I planned what would be in their lunchboxes when they went to school, always with a cool treat…because I would be a cool mom.
On my first date with my ex husband, I wanted to be clear about my goals…my purpose. I actually said to him, “look, I want kids…2-3 of them. This is what I imagine for my life, the picket fence and all. If you don’t want the same thing, we should probably stop here.” He did want the same thing…until he didn’t about 4 years into our marriage, while we were saving for the picket fence and the house that went along with it.
Our first Christmas together, I bought these wooden blocks for the child I was supposed to have, toys with letters and animals on them. I had wrapped them in green paper and a gold bow and put it under the tree for this baby I had not yet met. I did this for those 4 years, and then I stopped. All of a sudden, there was this enormous hole in my future where the baby had been.
He had his reasons, I didn’t blame him. I stayed for all the reasons I’ve already mentioned, but maybe, who knows, maybe I also stayed because what I knew was safer than what I didn’t know.
We ended up traveling with all the money we’d set aside for the 2-3 kids, putting everything we owned into a garage. I reevaluated the fences, the booties, the babies. I made a new list of things I wanted to experience in my life. I went to pastry school in Paris. I unraveled the long ball of yarn of what I wanted my life to look like, and on a blank slate, I began to redraw a new picture with things that I would have been proud to say I did, at the end of my life.
I worked hard to create a life that was so uniquely mine that, once, I saw a passing reflection of myself and was surprised because for the first time in my life, I liked what I saw.
Our marriage ended eventually, it fell apart under the weight of time and silence. I opened a bakery. I made new lists of things I wanted to experience and I did them all. I was feeling completely myself, and happy, and without regret for a life I could have lived because I was living the one I chose.
Then one day, as I was cleaning out that old garage, I found the box of blocks wrapped in green paper, tied with a gold bow…and I hurt. My body hurt: my gut, my throat, it winded me.
I threw the blocks out. I threw it out because unwrapping the paper, packing it up in the car, driving it to a Goodwill, and imagining it have a new life would have been too much. I tossed it in a dumpster, and willed myself to move on.
And I share this because I want you to know that even though I made a choice…that even though I was living the exact life I wanted at the time, it didn't mean that we don’t still mourn the things that didn’t come to pass, the things we once wanted so dearly.
It doesn’t mean we are not allowed to look back at choices we made, and wonder, or imagine the what could have been. And even if we are happy and proud of the life we’ve lived because we didn’t have kids, it doesn't mean we can’t have the depth and vastness to have empathy for the part of us that still longs for the life we once dreamt of.
You see, I don’t think decisions are always a black and white, YES or NO. Sometimes we want both, but we want one just a little more than the other. And when we look back on our choices, the way we feel about them is also fluid, changing, as we change, as we see more of the world, as we see more of ourselves in that unexpected reflection.
I did end up having a child, a beautiful twist of fate. But for many years after I threw out those wooden blocks, I imagined a life without kids, purely by circumstance and then later by choice.
Childless One, I don’t know how you feel, when you look back. I don’t know how your purpose has changed and evolved over the years, if you feel certain about your purpose now or if, like Talia, the meandering exploration of your life holds more meaning than if you were to define it.
And frankly, during those years after the wooden blocks, even when I saw glimpses of an alternate life, making me look back and wonder, in the moments I took the time to really look at my life, I knew I was ok. I may have felt a whisper of regret but I also knew that I would never have made a different decision, at that moment in time. And though my life hasn’t always felt good, if I were to go back, I likely would have chosen the exact same thing, over and over, knowing what has spawned from all those big and small decisions have made a pretty good life, my life. And I’m pretty proud of how I’ve turned out…and I have a sneaky suspicion that you might feel the same way too.
END:
Thank you all for joining me for this episode of You & I and thank you Talia for sharing such a loving and gentle way to see life’s difficult decisions.
It was such a pleasure to explore your question, The Childless one. I hope you got something helpful out of this…if anything, know that you’re not alone. You see, we all struggle, mourn, yearn, question, laugh and cry. No matter our age, background, or titles, at our core, we are all not so different, You & I.
TEASE NEXT MONTH’S Q:
And here is next month’s question.
“How do you find the courage to speak with a therapist or find help in ways you might need but do not feel worthy of?”
OUTRO: [music]
If you feel inspired to respond to this asker and are interested in being a guest of this episode, OR if you have a short word of wisdom for them, write to us on the contact page on youandipodcast.com or DM us on instagram at @youandi (DOT) podcast. And of course, please submit your questions there too.
If you enjoyed this episode, like and subscribe to our channel, which helps others who might be interested, find us. And feel free to share this episode with someone who may find it helpful as well. Thank you for joining us today. I’m Jackie Kai Ellis, and here are some words of wisdom.