Episode 13: How can we learn to be comfortable, with being uncomfortable?
This week's question is one that we all struggle with in some way as we inevitably encounter moments of discomfort, however big or small.
They write:
"How can we learn to be comfortable, with being uncomfortable?"
Jackie digs into this universal topic with Brian Hart Hoffman. Brian was mustering the courage to say his final goodbyes to his mother, he shared some words his mother often repeated to him, “you can do hard things.” The perfect starting off point in a conversation centred around doing just that.
We hope that you get something helpful out of this conversation. If anything, know that you’re not alone. You see, we all struggle, mourn, yearn, question, laugh and cry. No matter our age, background, or titles, at our core, we are all not so different, You & I.
This podcast is produced by More Good Media.
Episode Resources:
Jackie Kai Ellis: Website / Instagram
You & I Podcast: Website
Resources on finding trusted professional help can be found here.
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The following transcript was automatically generated. Please be aware that it may contain errors. Thank you for your understanding.
Jackie Kai Ellis 0:00
Welcome to You and I. I'm Jackie Kai Ellis. And it's my genuine hope that through sharing our most vulnerable stories we know, in the moments where it matters so much, that we're actually not alone.
It needs to be said, I'm not a professional, just someone with some personal experience to share. I do hope this is helpful. But as always, take the advice that resonates and ignore what doesn't. And don't hesitate to seek out professional help through a trusted source. We have resources on our website.
This month's question took me a long time to process and she won. It's something I haven't been embracing in my life as much these days. Or maybe with motherhood. I feel like I'm constantly in discomfort, so much so that I resisted thinking about it to
the right. How can we learn to be comfortable with being uncomfortable? This question was sent over Instagram, but we keep all of our askers anonymous, so I've decided to name you uncomfortable.
As Brian Hart Hoffman was mustering the courage to say his final goodbyes to his mother. He shared some words his mum often repeated to him. You can do hard things. When I heard them, it stuck with me. Landing in me is if I had always made a special place for this thought, awaiting its arrival, my dear uncomfortable, I thought you might want to hear these words, too.
Here's my conversation with Brian, and the story behind the words.
Hi, Brian, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have you. I am more than excited to be here and very, very honored that you invited me. So for people that don't know, I would say we've known each other for a few years now pre pandemic. Yeah. And we actually met in Paris, because you were doing some work over there. And we haven't seen each other for more than two or three times in person. But you feel like such a dear friend of mine already. I'm just so honored. Because I know what a great storyteller you are, but also that you are so open and honest. And you really show up.
Brian Hart Hoffman 2:11
Well, thank you, I tell you, I think every time I see you in person or talk with you, our connection is something I felt like day one. And I think in life, I'm learning to honor that spiritual connection you find with someone and quit questioning why you feel a certain way about people when you're with them.
Jackie Kai Ellis 2:44
You are the first person that I thought of when this question came into the inbox. The question was, how do you get comfortable with being uncomfortable? And you popped into my head because recently your mom had passed away. And I remember seeing you post this Insta story where you had traced her footsteps and found yourself in Alaska. I think it was. And you were throwing flowers into, I guess it must have been an inlet or an ocean there. And you said my mom always told me, you can do hard things. And I'm doing hard things right now. Yeah, gosh, I get emotional just thinking about it. Because that's so powerful. And since that moment, every time something's uncomfortable. I always repeat in my head. No, you can do hard things. And it's become a bit of a mantra for me to get me through something.
Can you tell me a little bit about the very first time your mom ever told you this, if you even remember.
Brian Hart Hoffman 4:31
That is funny you say that? Because, preparing for today. I was thinking about that history of that mantra in my life. And I don't know that I can recall the origin because I think she had been practicing that thought in her mind her entire life. And so I think as a result, when I was an infant, or a toddler, or kindergarten or whatever, I can always hear her telling me that you can do tough things. And I don't think I had a true appreciation for that. Until those moments in your life come when you feel so uncomfortable. And you have to dig inside and say I can do this tough thing. And now I'm going to put my foot forward and step into it. I mean, we're talking about a woman who, well, just just in business, I'll just even address her career when she was in it.
In university, she got her degree in accounting and graduated at a time when it was a male dominated I'm so you know, I guess I hate referencing periods of time like that because when I think about my mom, I don't think about this male dominated world because to me, my world was heard as the dominant person. So when I hear her recall these stories, I'm always a little amazed at her determination and her will. But she was in this male dominated space, she began her career at Ernst and Young. In a time when, you know, she talked about women, the dress code for a woman: skirts, and pantyhose and heels and all these things that were women applicable only, and how her career almost started with her doing tough things. She was a female in the room with a bunch of men at a time when I think the behavior of men was just well, the woman will have to deal with how we're going to behave. And so she would tell stories about times that she felt uncomfortable, but determined. And I don't think those were the moments where she had to dig deep. I think it was a part of her drive that kept her going in the direction she wanted to go with this position in an internationally known firm, the success that she gained just with the quality of her work, but I think the true mantra for her kicked in at a time when she had married my father, they had moved outside of Birmingham, to a small town, she left the big firm. So she made a that, probably was a tough choice. So that was probably a you can do something uncomfortable and leave your career to be married and do this, you know, next phase of life. So that's probably one example. But she then in 1983, started a media company, the company that, you know, my brother and I now operate after her death. We'd worked with her for 16 years, but now it's the company we continue forward with. And so that's 40 years ago. And she walked into a bank to open business accounts, her and three other women. And they said, Well, where are your husbands? You can't have banking accounts without your husband's on them. That's insane. Exactly, no. So when I, when I tell these stories, I feel like I'm almost telling you about the script of like Mad Men or something like I feel like it's something so fake that, unfortunately, I grew up under her as the image of a strong woman. So for me, this stuff feels so foreign to even discuss. But the bank questioned her and the women and said, you know, no, like men, you'll need your husbands on these bank accounts. And I think for her, instead of saying, Okay, let me go call my husband, because he would have signed it anyway, I think all of their husbands would have supported or did support the business launch. But she said, No, and I think that was probably an uncomfortable moment for her to say, I'm going to insist that this account and business be opened by the four owners, which are for women. And I think that probably started for her steps into a world professionally, where she was uncomfortable a lot. And that determination and making those choices drove her to the success that the company then enjoyed. And so I think, if you look at just the professional part of her that one aspect of, you know, questions from people about women doing these things, and women doing this and how she probably sat in the car outside of the bank for I don't know what, enough time to give yourself that pep talk like, Okay, fellas, walk through the door, say the next thing to the person and just stay determined. And so I think with her, I would say her entire life was driven by her determination that actually was probably her spirit and soul pushing her through those tough things. You can do tough things, you can survive that uncomfortable moment because the outcome was greater in the end. I remember as a kid, just even like in school, you know, hating a certain subject. And she's like, alright, we can do tough things, right? And we're like, Yes, ma'am. And so I think as a parent for her guiding us through tough things, as it applied to each of our personalities and and where, where we were growing and showing strength and where we were showing weakness as she was able to help be a part of that. That navigation for us.
Jackie Kai Ellis 9:42
You were talking before about how you have these moments of oh my gosh, this is really uncomfortable. And then you put your first step out, but sometimes that oh my gosh, I'm so uncomfortable part, and the back and forth negotiating with yourself. Do it. No, I can't do it. No, I can't. Did you ever see your mom in that face of it? Or did she hide it from you?
Brian Hart Hoffman 10:07
Like most moms kind of do especially in that age moms, moms have a superpower, I think of hiding a lot of what they truly feel they'd stay the strong force, they stay the steady. Hug the encourager, the role of mom has a big superhero status. And I think she did try very hard to never as when we were younger, to never let us see the moment she was probably very uncomfortable, or needing to push herself to take that first uncomfortable step. Well, let me take that back. So my mom sold the company. And then my mom, and my dad bought the company back. And they did that, because the media company that had purchased our business, they wanted to shut down the operation in Birmingham and move everyone to Colorado. My brother and I were going into our last year of high school. And she said, there is no way I am taking my children out of the school that they've known for their entire education, and have them go to a high school in Colorado for one year, they won't have friends, they won't be a part of their senior year will not be special. And she probably had to make a tough, you can do tough things by telling them no. And so I think those for her in business were those tough things. But I don't think of that in the same way that I think about how her advice resonated, maybe in my life, in personal avenues, where you feel stuck. And I think sometimes we feel stuck because of social pressures, cultural pressures, your surroundings, your location, your family, your friends, your environment. And for me, growing up in Birmingham, Alabama, realizing that I'm gay, at some point, I can't remember what day it was that I thought, Aha, this makes all the sense in the world, why I feel the way I feel. But for me, her words, you can do tough things applied to when I sat down with her to tell her that I'm gay. So the advice came back to encourage me into talking with my parents, and then coming out to family, friends and everything in the mix. And so the natural or the norm in that environment of feeling stuck, is it's easier to not tell them, I didn't live in Birmingham, I was a flight attendant at the time I was traveling the world, I could keep my wife separated, I had done it for a number of years.
But then you realize that you're not honoring yourself, if you're masking who you are to make other people feel comfortable around you. And so you're faced with, there's no matter what in those scenarios, there's an uncomfortable that's going to happen. It's either you're uncomfortable forever, because you're not owning who you are, you're not, you're not going through that honesty part that you want to share with people because of what you think they might feel your perception of their opinion or their reactions, or socially. Like I said, you're in a… you're in Birmingham, Alabama, not the most liberal of places or even, you know, at the time, not anywhere welcoming on the scale of having a thriving gay community, I would say. And her words were the reasons I was able to sit down and get my mouth to open that first crack to say the words, that's that first step, that's that you can do this tough thing. And then once you say the first word, you kind of have to say the rest of the words. So the first word could be that first step. And then once you start, you just have to stay in it and go through it. But then the confidence you get by doing that, starts to be that mantra, like you were saying, after you heard my mom's words, you start practicing that every day. And at the end of it, you're honoring yourself first. And when you can honor yourself first, that I'm doing tough things is self rewarding, but it's also rewarding for everyone around you because you're a better version of yourself. When you are able to do the tough things and stay committed to who you are.
Jackie Kai Ellis 14:39
That's really a good point. You know, you're either uncomfortable doing the thing or you stay uncomfortable not doing the thing. And that's so true because ultimately, even if it is something as simple as social anxiety…so for a time out of nowhere, I started having social anxiety, and I've no idea why I was never like this before. And it's like, act as if you are comfortable until you are comfortable. Because if you don't, you will stay uncomfortable forever. And it will always be on your mind that you're uncomfortable.
Brian Hart Hoffman 15:19
I think whoever asked this question, how do you get through the uncomfortable? Well, I would challenge them back and say, you're probably already uncomfortable. But where do you want the uncomfortable to come from either your permanent uncomfortableness, that you've now harbored the thought of a decision, the anxiety of something, whatever it is, that's making that person asked this question to begin with, let the uncomfortable fall on others. Because they will get over it, they will adjust. And I think most people, in the end, we build a huge mountain of stress about that uncomfortable. And when you do that thing, or you make that first step, you realize the mountain was really just a small bump. Yeah, and the people who receive you, receive you better when you're yourself. And if people don't receive you, well, when you go through the uncomfortable, they were never your people to begin with. And this is what i i Finally, I feel like at 42 years old, you know, not that I have it all figured out. But I am now always myself, always, I don't, I don't hide in the closet, I don't hide my personality, I'm loud, I'm dramatic, I'm animated, I am going to be the one in a restaurant that you probably look at, like Shush, but I am me. And it is just how it is, you know, I have to be comfortable in me. And then let the other thing the uncomfortable falls on others. And not that I want that to be like some sort of like, I don't care about people eating in a restaurant, or I don't care about people on an airplane. But I'm also not going to be the one that doesn't enjoy myself when you're in a public setting. And you know, it's finding that way to be yourself at all moments of everyday.
Jackie Kai Ellis 17:17
You know, I've noticed with a lot of my gay friends, when they talk about their coming out experience. It's so formative, because it's such a traumatic experience, actually to feel like you can't be who you are. In front of all the people who know you most you feel like you have to hide such a fundamental part of you. And I feel like, I guess the people that I know, who have had the most traumatic coming out experiences are so much more defined in who they are, because they really had to go through an experience where they had to choose. And they had to choose this as who I am, whether you like it or not, and they spent the rest of their lives less bogged down with, I'm going to be who you want me to be. Because they can't undo that amount of resolve. And also loss, the loss of people around them. Yeah, the sacrifice that they had to make in order to be exactly who they are. It required that level of loss, which required pain. But it's like, I've sacrificed this much in order to be me. I'm not going back.
Brian Hart Hoffman 18:37
Right.
Jackie Kai Ellis 18:38
And I do notice this and I think it's this life experience. That is so… I don't know, I kind of admit I'm amazed and awed by it. And sometimes a little jealous even because…not jealous. I mean it's excruciating pain. But I'm like, Man, I wish that I could be that sure of me. And stand in my own self with so much joy and abandon and unapologetic.
Brian Hart Hoffman 19:07
Yeah, it's it's getting to a point where, you know, I think there are so many examples of taking the listeners question and still applying this. How do you do uncomfortable? There are small micro uncomfortable, there are the I'm uncomfortable, you know, asking this person on a date. I'm uncomfortable resigning from my current work position because I don't want to disappoint people and then you know, people restrict themselves in in micro uncomfortable, but then to give the magnitude of what you just said, someone who's lived, in my case, 20 years of my life before I was able to fully come out which I look at that is just such an antiquated thing. heterosexual people don't come out as straight. So why are gay people having to go through we've lived This entire life of everyone trying to put the expectations on you, you're gonna meet a woman you're married yet all that hoping your straight kind of talk, and then you finally bust out of the shackles of it. And that's what you see in your friends is once we're done with that, and you break out of the most ultimate uncomfortable of your life, there is no going back. And I wil…l I don't allow any room in my life for people who ignore my identity and try to pretend that it's not real. That freedom is you shed the ultimate uncomfortable when you go through that.
Jackie Kai Ellis 20:41
In a moment, Brian and I discuss the discomfort of boundary setting. But first, a word from our nonprofit partner. In each episode, we feature a nonprofit chosen by a past guest, in this case is Shea Evans. It's a small thanks to them and to our community.
In 1993, Venice Arts was born. Following the civil unrest in Los Angeles, and after one of what were to be many cuts to arts education in Los Angeles' public schools, a group of Venice residents—artists, business people, and other community members—came together to figure out how to link Venice's then large community of emerging and established artists with the significant number of kids living in poverty. Their dream was to create a vibrant, neighborhood arts center open to the whole community. They now serve over 450 low-income young people, each year, through their largest core program, Art Mentoring & Education as well as engage a broad community at their Gallery through exhibitions, screenings, and public programs and consult and train others interested in our model around the world. All built around their core commitment to nurturing creativity and possibility in the lives of young people.
You can learn more about Venice Arts and how to get involved by visiting their website www.venicearts.org.
Now back to our conversation.
Do you think that uncomfortableness always comes from feeling the pressure to adhere to some sort of social norm? Or do you think it's always an external pressure? Like if there were no external pressures? Would we ever be uncomfortable?
Brian Hart Hoffman 22:36
No. I mean, I certainly like it. Statically say no, but I agree with you. I think 95% of the uncomfortableness that people feel is outside forces, outside pressures, dictating what you're going to be what you're supposed to do, what a role is for this person in the world. That expectation causes so many people to feel stuck to feel I can't make that tough choice. I can't do that tough thing. You know, fast forward to fast forward to just my mom's final weeks on the earth with us, and seeing her in a hospital room on life support. So you don't have a choice in the matter. But you can do tough things. You go in that room, you love her, you show up, even though it's uncomfortable, because it's your nightmare unfolding in front of your eyes, you can do a tough thing and surprise yourself at the resiliency of the human spirit. As a child, my biggest fear was that my mom was going to die.
Speaker 1 23:53
I used to beg my Mom, please don't die. And she would say, Why are you asking me that? Quiet? Why are you saying that? What's happening? She wanted to know what's happening that and I don't know what was happening. I don't know if a friend at school lost a parent or something that triggered a fear in me. I was I am I was gonna say I was I am a mama's boy. I am through and through my soul and hers just interwoven and connected and and I'm a mama's boy. When the 42 year old me is standing in a hospital seeing her final days, you still have that little boy in there saying please don't go like Please don't. And that you're tough choice or not tough choice but doing tough things is that I can be here for her and love her through her last moment. And then start doing the pieces of the next hard thing and that's moving forward and live with her in a different capacity. And the week she passed away I saw something hanging on the wall at her home that I had never seen before. Ever And I had walked back, I think to use the restroom and one part of our house that I don't spend a lot of time. And as I came out, I saw it on the wall and I read it. And I said, I want this rat at her funeral. I these words resonated with me, just as a message from her it was so to immediately feel a message from her that I wanted to share with people. And before the service, the officiants and everything were like, are you going to be strong enough to get up and speak. And I did give them the option. I said, if we get to this point in the service, and you look at me, I will either give you a yes or a no with my head. And that's going to be the indication that either someone else will read those same words, or I will get up and do it. Because you've never been to your mom's funeral before until you go the first time. You don't know how you're going to be. And as we got to that moment, I could feel the timeline coming down to the second that I was going to have to make a choice. Give the yes head or the no head to to either read those words, or let someone else do it. And I heard her say, you can do tough things. They looked at me, I shaved my head. Yes. I walked up on the stage. And I read those words,
Jackie Kai Ellis 26:19
what did the words say?
Speaker 1 26:22
It said, I wish you wondrous things that can't be tied in ribbons and bows. I wish you thoughts that take you to magnificent places. I wish you togetherness and abundant happiness. And I wish you quiet times all to yourself when the grace of all that is good in your life is sweetly celebrated within. And I just felt like that was her like departure message that I wanted people to hear. And I wanted them to hear it from me. And I got up there and that strength was with me. And I did it. I did that tough thing. And fast forward. I had a work trip already on the calendar for this entire year, I do baking retreats, but we had one to Alaska. And we had gone on a family cruise to Alaska when she got sicker and eventually was taken off of the cruise ship and flown on a medical jet to Washington and then subsequently to Seattle where she passed away away from home. Alive Alaska was the last place I was with my mom. And it is the very first place I went after her death. And that feeling or that dread of the way I keep saying the way it looked because Alaska has such a distinct look when there's the foggy mountains and the water and the bald eagles and I thought oh my god, I'm gonna have to look at this Alaska scenery. And remember the dread and ache that I felt as we were on that cruise and she had been taken off of that cruise ship. So I had to tell myself over and over and over every day that I could do that tough thing. When I got to talk Hebei Lodge and they had planned for us to take the boat out on Kachemak Bay. And they wanted me to talk about her and tell the participants in the baking event about her. And it was the first time I'd done that since her death. And I thought How do I talk about her in the past tense? How do I talk about this woman that my own brain has not quite realized yet is gone. But I'm there doing the motions of going through that event. And that's when I posted and what you saw was they had flowers for all of us. And I threw the first batch of flowers under the water and then everyone else. And to see 20 different little batches of flowers floating on the water. It did help reclaim that as a special visual in my mind. And I could do that tough thing that day, that moment. Those words. I don't think any tough decision I've ever made in my entire life
Brian Hart Hoffman 29:15
had ever compared to what I've had to do in the day since she left. And you know this Jackie too when creative people go through emotional traumas, your creativity does not come the way you thought it would. And I have really struggled with Can I go into the office today? Can I do that tough thing. As small as it is waking up having a cup of coffee and coming to my office? Can I do that tough thing that day? There are days that the answer's no.
Jackie Kai Ellis 29:48
That's really an important point that you're making, which is that we don't always have to push ourselves. Progress sometimes requires sitting down and taking a breath. Because we're not meant to endure. Day after day after day. Sometimes we just have to give ourselves a break. And that's also okay. Yeah, I think that's a gentle way of looking at it. And then the other thing I was thinking, as you were talking is like, where did this idea come from that it's not supposed to be uncomfortable. Uncomfortable things happen all the time. I mean, before we were saying, Okay, do most uncomfortable things come from outside forces? A lot of them do. But then there are just uncomfortable things because we are living the depth of life. We are choosing to love someone so deeply that when they're not with us physically anymore, it's so uncomfortable. It's so painful. And who is to say that we're not supposed to feel uncomfortable? In fact, we are. It's natural. This you're supposed to be in excruciating pain right now.
Brian Hart Hoffman 31:06
Yeah. Yeah. And I think about, again, talking about social pressures. I want people to feel comfortable expressing their love for my mom, for me for what we're going through. But it's uncomfortable, knowing I'm gonna walk in the door of somewhere, and the first few minutes will be spent acknowledging what has happened.
I kind of worded as you live through 1000 funerals, because the words, and it's amazing, and they're comforting. And I love that people loved her. And I love talking about her. And I love having people talk about her. But you still go through a funeral each and every time because you're reopening the reality that she's gone. So those are all tough choices every day to go into that room, or go to that person's home, or go to the cafe and meet someone, knowing the dialogue is going to focus. But also having enough confidence in certain days that you can say to people, and it may met make for an awkward moment. Hey, if it's okay with you today, I don't feel like talking about my mom. I'm not emotionally strong enough for that. So if we could just talk about other things that would be helpful to me. And so I think part of doing the uncomfortable is also being able to not, it's not combative or confrontational, but it's dictating and claiming ownership of what you're capable of doing in that scenario, when you may be feeling uncomfortable. And feeling okay, with how that might create a smidge of an awkward moment when you might have to shift the gears of a conversation to make yourself feel emotionally strong or comfortable enough to get through that portion of time.
Jackie Kai Ellis 33:02
I think that's a very, that's a very common discomfort for most people, is to be able to say, I don't want to be uncomfortable. So I'm going to make you uncomfortable for a little bit. Yeah. And that's uncomfortable for me to make you feel uncomfortable. I spent the better part of my life being very uncomfortable, so that I didn't make other people feel uncomfortable, right, when it could have been very easy just to say, I don't want to talk about that. I mean, I still don't have words like there are still moments where I'll just go you know, what is not that uncomfortable for me. I can just endure it. I don't want to have to go through the hassle of explaining this. And no, you don't need to explain it. You say no, I'm not going there with you today.
Brian Hart Hoffman 33:49
And Jackie, and I think back. It's so funny you use the example of my mom's mom trying words as something that's given you strength and guidance. I think about your book often when you wrote and I think you and I shared a little bit of some stories with each other when we were together a few months ago about living in life circumstances that it like I've referenced earlier in our conversation. It takes a lot of uncomfortableness to shift the gears and shift the direction of where your life is going. And you have always, in my mind, already been living that mantra you just didn't have the words the way my mom said it in your mind that you are an example of someone that I look to as a mentor in going through life's expectations and bucking that by saying, I know I'm gonna make a lot of people uncomfortable, but I'm claiming this for myself because this is me finally not being uncomfortable anymore. And you, you did it, and you wrote about it. And I think your listeners, I hope they all know about your book and they're going to order a copy right now. The measure and powers it truly landed with me in a very I tell you this all the time, your raw honesty and your openness is an inspiration and guidance for people in this very subject that we're talking about today.
Jackie Kai Ellis 35:27
Yeah, and it's funny because life continues and you meet more uncomfortable things. And sometimes we regress and the things that we thought were easy before become uncomfortable again, but then we get catapulted to, to a different stage of uncomfortable, and one of my best friends, we have bi weekly calls and, and she says, you know, why am I still dealing with this one thing? Why is this still an issue? It's been 20 years, and I've been working on it. And I was like, Do you see how far you've come? That you are not in kindergarten of this issue? You know, you're not in kindergarten, you're dealing with like masters level. And even two years ago, this would not have been on your plate, because you wouldn't have even been able to conceive of this type of discomfort. So give yourself kudos that we're constantly evolving and growing and becoming stronger, that we're able to take on more and more uncomfortable things. But the uncomfortable things, unfortunately, never stop. Because we're interested in evolution, we want to get better, we want to go forward, we want to move. And so therefore, it does come with a price of discomfort because we could just stay in one place all the time. And then going back to the book, it's such a good reminder. It's so funny because I often forget about the book, and that I've written all this stuff. And you know what it was that pushed me into the discomfort of finding comfort was that I realized that my life was unbearable as it was. And so I had no other choice.
that they didn't get to the point where they're like, I can't do this anymore, I need it to change. And so we look at people who are still in that situation, 20 years later. And I think to myself, This person has the internal strength that nobody knows, because they're still there. Yeah. And so I do think that I just have been blessed with to some degree, a short fuse with discomfort. And so I'll just go, I can't do this anymore. I just got to change this.
Brian Hart Hoffman 38:06
So maybe the older I'm getting, the shorter my fuse for that is too because I think that's a, again, tying this whole conversation back to every single person's every day, I finally decided at some point in the late 20s, early 30s, mid 30s. Now 40s, every day, I determine how much more of myself, I'm going to honor. And it may make a lot of people uncomfortable, but I can't worry about that. And that is for me. The doing tough things means sometimes doing the things that honor yourself first and only, and then the ramifications or the fallout from it shows you who was on your side already, who did not need to be there. And who may come into your life as a result of you honoring your resolve. And that strength you're talking about is real. It takes a really strong person to stay in something where they are not happy and they're not fulfilled. That's not weakness, that strength, just like you said, I could not agree with that anymore.
Jackie Kai Ellis 39:16
Yeah, it really is. Once we learn that discomfort is okay. And we accept discomfort, then we can live much more comfortably. Yeah, it's almost like taking a huge weight off your shoulders and just being able to be as opposed to the constant analysis of how what am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to be and oh my gosh, the amount of torture we put ourselves through? Yeah, just because we're afraid of well, it's not such a small thing. We're afraid of judgment. We're afraid of shame, social isolation. You know, we're all taught that unless you conform, you will be ousted, right and we all want to be accepted, loved.
Last question. If you could speak to the asker directly, what advice would you give to them?
Brian Hart Hoffman 40:14
Man, I've thought about this the entire discussion that we've been having, hoping that the listener is hearing this conversation and getting the strength from it to make whatever that decision is they need to make to go through the uncomfortable. But the, I think the biggest advice that I would give that person maybe goes back to my very first thought of our conversation is put one foot forward, put one word out, and let that be the opening that you can't go back from. Because you clearly know what you're thinking. And I'm guessing you already know the outcome, you need the strength to do the uncomfortable to get to that part you're looking at. And I would say it's that first step forward, or it's that first word that is going to be the most impactful in an outcome that gives you the happiness and the the decision that you probably already know is there.
And then I would say dream of what's on the other side of the uncomfortable. So don't let the uncomfortable be the wall that you're staring at. Know that that wall is probably thinner than you think weaker than you're giving it credit for. And when you get through it, over it, under it, bust through it however you've got to the other part is what I want you thinking about. Because when you get there, you're going to look back and appreciate the uncomfortable that led to where you are.
Jackie Kai Ellis 41:45
That is so beautiful. Gosh, this is such an amazing conversation. Also, I'm just so appreciative of being able to spend a bit of time with you. Because I know you're very busy. And we get very few chances to see each other in person.
Thank you so much for your time and for your wisdom. I love every second that I get to talk with you be with you. If it's virtual in person on a phone, social media, you name it, but I am so honored to have been on the podcast with you and just to spend this time talking.
Dear uncomfortable, I can do hard things. I've repeated this during workouts where my trainer has insisted I run up a long steep hill so many times that I could have sworn that my legs had turned into hot dogs. This phrase was my mantra during a recent six minute cold plunge so cold and actually felt like my skin was burning off. I said this to myself before stepping into a meeting I'd spent weeks feeling worried about. I thought this when the toilet needs cleaning and is the last thing I want to do. And even at times when my marriage feels like a run up that long, steep hill.
The thing is, there are such varying degrees of discomfort that range from mere awkwardness to devastating pain. And there are also different kinds of discomfort. There’s the discomfort that’s there to tell us something needs to change. And then there’s the discomfort of change itself.
The former is the discomfort we feel when our circumstances don't align with us. Whether it's a fear that's no longer helpful, or we've made ourselves small to please others. Or we're in a relationship that feels like it belongs to someone else. This kind of discomfort can serve as a reminder that we need to choose a different action, a different thought.
The latter is a discomfort that comes with learning, growing, evolving, letting go, accepting it's the discomfort that comes with learning to walk, learning to fall, learning to get back up to run and learning when to slow down and when to stop is the uncomfortable change that comes with death and living. Its true life isn't comfortable a lot of the time. But who actually told us we weren't supposed to feel uncomfortable a lot of the time. The fact is hard things are hard by nature. It's the definition. And what's so wrong with finding something challenging.
Personally, I found this thought really comforting. The idea that there's nothing wrong or wrong with me if I'm struggling with something. What is so wrong with feeling discomfort anyway, I wish I could normalize struggle and take the shame of it away. The fear that we might be judged while wading through the stickiest bit, that we should be embarrassed of everything before we become experts at something. I mean, God forbid someone saw me at the part where both me and my baby were hysterically crying. The part before he fell fast asleep again, before he woke up smiling. And before we shared a Happy croissant on our morning walk.
Somewhere along the way, we are told that not breaking a sweat is admirable, that we should compare ourselves to the person that makes it look easiest. But we all struggle, every single one of us. And we also didn't bear witness to how much actually went into the process of someone else learning, failing, growing until one day slowly, it started to look easy from the outside.
And even beyond the idea that discomfort is normal, maybe we could think of it as a good thing. Life is uncomfortable but it’s also joyous and exhilarating. In fact, often it is so, precisely because of discomfort. When we are feeling hot, sometimes it’s because we’re exploring the crowded summer streets of a town we’ve always wanted to visit. If we are feeling too cold, maybe it was worth it for that winter’s walk at dawn. If we never stretched, we’d never know how far we could reach. If we never acted despite our fear, we’d never know how brave we really are.
Maybe it’s a sign that we are, in fact, living our lives fully and well.
Perhaps we need to welcome discomfort.
David Bowie famously said “ Always go a little further into the water than you feel you’re capable of being in. Go a little bit out of your depth. And when you don’t feel that your feet are quite touching the bottom, you’re just about in the right place to do something exciting.”
Though we need not always invite discomfort, there are times and places for everything, but in the least, we can acknowledge that life isn’t necessarily better without it either. Maybe without it, we would possibly be stagnant, complacent or bored. Or we may never find reasons to rise to the occasion of our lives.
So, my dear uncomfortable, trust that you can do hard things, whether that is making a change, or growing through one. And in the uncomfortable situations you face, let these words encourage you, embolden you, arm you and reveal to you just how resilient you are.
If you enjoyed this episode, like and subscribe to our channel, which helps others who might be interested find us. And feel free to share this episode with someone who may find it helpful as well. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm Jackie Kai Ellis. And here are some words of wisdom from you, our listeners.
Listener 1 50:19
Getting comfortable with being uncomfortable is one of the most important questions you can ask. It's a key to our fullest expression in life, connection to our deepest purpose, and an absolute act of courage to step into. So first off, I commend you for your willingness to go there. Getting comfortable with the uncomfortable is a practice, allow room for mistakes, progression, and those inevitable moments of I thought I already got through this. Why am I feeling uncomfortable? Again, in terms of growing your capacity for being with the uncomfortable, I'm going to give you a few possibilities from a few different angles. First, you have to lean in, we have to lean in and get familiar with our discomfort in order to get more comfortable, even when our instinct is to bury it and run with leaning in. A whole world of feelings can and will come to the surface. Anything from disgust, rage, sadness, embarrassment, shame, physical sensations of pain, nervousness burning, there are so many different types of discomfort, start to get familiar with your versions. When we name things and get to know them, we can change our relationship to them. Remembering, there's a reason why we avoid what's uncomfortable. Because all these feelings, sensations and emotions and experiences that come up when we sit with it are uncomfortable. Be gentle with yourself, find safe places to share your experience. Seek out stories from others who've gone through the same because with sameness, the more healing and growth we get to experience. Again, I want to express how courageous it is to get comfortable with the uncomfortable. It's not for no reason you and all of us have been avoiding it for so long. Getting comfortable with discomfort can sometimes mean letting go of an old identity we had for ourself, or for others. And so as we get comfortable with the uncomfortable, it can also mean that we're stepping into loss and grief, something we don't normally talk about or acknowledge. And I urge you to bring gentleness to the process and support systems as you move through getting comfortable with the uncomfortable.
Listener 2 52:56
Hey, my name is Heather Boersma. And this question about learning to be comfortable with the uncomfortable really resonated with me. Because in the last few weeks, I broke my ankle and have been in the process of starting physiotherapy and in that process have realized that sometimes the uncomfortable things are actually really important and part of your healing. And sometimes they're not. And the question I've been kind of asking myself is, is this pain I'm feeling? And I need to actually stop and slow down and rest? Or is this just discomfort and I actually need to push through and do the exercises and strengthen myself. And I think this really parallels our lives as well. Sometimes the uncomfortable means we need to stop if it's painful, and it's really going to damage or hurt us. And sometimes when it's uncomfortable, that's actually a sign that we need to push through and we need to keep showing up and keep going. So learning the difference between that has been really helpful for me in my journey, and hopefully will be helpful for you too.
Jackie Kai Ellis 54:11
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