Episode 17: How do I overcome imposter syndrome?
For today’s episode, Jackie will be exploring the listener question, "How do I overcome imposter syndrome?" with guest, Ruchika Tulshyan. She is the best-selling author of Inclusion on Purpose: An Intersectional Approach to Creating a Culture of Belonging at Work and a regular contributor to The New York Times and Harvard Business Review for which she co-wrote the article, "Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome."
Tune in as they dive into the roots of imposter syndrome, how it disproportionately affects women of colour, and how systemic bias and exclusion exacerbate and pathologize insecurity.
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Episode Resources:
Jackie Kai Ellis: Website / Instagram
Ruchika Tulshyan: Website / Instagram
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You & I Podcast: Website / Instagram
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The following transcript was automatically generated. Please be aware that it may contain errors. Thank you for your understanding.
Welcome to You & I.
I'm Jackie Kai Ellis and it's my genuine hope that through sharing our most vulnerable stories we know, in the moments where it matters so much, there were actually not alone. It needs to be said, I'm not a professional, just someone with some personal experience to share. I do hope this is helpful but as always, take the advice that resonates and ignore what doesn't. And don't hesitate to seek out professional help through a trusted source.
We have resources on our website. For this month, I'm exploring the question, how do I overcome imposter syndrome with my guest, Ruchika Tulshyan She's the best-selling author of Inclusion on Purpose, an intersectional approach to creating a culture of belonging at work. And she's currently working on her next book called Uncompete, dismantling a competition mindset into unlock liberation, opportunity and peace. She's a regular contributor to the New York Times and Harvard Business Review.
This is where she co-wrote an article called, Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome. I must admit to you, I'm traveling in Hong Kong right now and I have less than reliable internet connection. So the first part of our conversation, unfortunately, was lost. But what I told her was that I was feeling a lot of imposter syndrome, especially after reading her bio. She said she was hoping to reframe those words for me. We spoke about the history of imposter syndrome itself, which I will instead quote from her article. Imposter syndrome is loosely defined as doubting your abilities and feeling like a fraud. It disproportionately affects high achieving people who find it difficult to accept their accomplishments.
Many question whether they're deserving of accolades. Psychologist Pauline Rose Clans and Suzanne Ims developed the concept originally termed imposter phenomenon in their 1978 founding study, which focused on high achieving women. They posited that despite outstanding academic and professional accomplishments, women who experience the imposter phenomenon persist in believing that they are really not bright and have fooled anyone who thinks otherwise. Their findings spurred decades of thought leadership, programs and initiatives to address imposter syndrome in women. What's less explored is why imposter syndrome exists in the first place and what role workplace systems play in fostering and exacerbating it in women. In addition, we spoke briefly about why and how this disproportionately affects women of color in the workplace and how bias and exclusionary systems don't support women of color to thrive in the first place. So now that you're more or less caught up, let's jump into our conversation.
Speaker 2: During the times of the early pandemic, I was wishing that more of these white male global leaders were having those feelings of like questioning themselves, second guessing, asking like, do I have all the information? Have I talked to all the experts before making bold proclamations like masks don't matter or something like that, you know? So I actually think that there's a lot of merit to those feelings of, you know, asking questions about your ability, making sure that processes are more collaborative, even if you are in a very visible or very leader, you know, front position, asking those questions like, do I have everything I need? Should I double check to make sure I have everything I need? Like, I do see a lot of merit in and I think it's correct that if you are put in a position where you are, you know, impacting the lives of people in a very public way, you should be asking yourself, like, do I do I have everything I need?
I do want to second guess myself a little bit and do a little bit of a checklist. So I think there's some part of this, which I think the discourse on like leadership means you have all the answers, you table, like you pound your fists on the tables. Like you're the, you never have a moment of like second guessing yourself, your feathers are never ruffled, there's no vulnerability, there's no room for error. Like I don't think that served us very well either. So in some ways there are parts of like what we've now called imposter syndrome or confidence or all of that, which I think it's actually valuable to keep. Now, what I don't want us to keep though, is that we place it on women, we say it's only to do with women, people of color, people with other marginalized and historically excluded identities, and not take a systemic approach to it because I think that's been really concerning. I mean, even this idea of like what you brought up, what we wrote in the article about for white men who have these cis white men, straight white men who have, you know, doubts and sort of those, have had their authority questioned earlier in their careers. Later on in their careers research shows they do have sponsors and very much so mentors who very much, you know, make sure that they're affirmed that their authority is affirmed that they are lifted up, right? I mean, research around even sponsorship shows three quarters of sponsors pick protégés of the same race and gender as them. So if you think about the fact that largely even corporate America, corporate North America, the large corporations all over the world are largely run by white men, if they, if three quarters of the, of the times the protégés they pick are the same race and gender as them, then who's getting affirmed?
Who's getting groomed to be future leaders and having their sort of doubts or authority questioned in the past? Who's, who's having that abated versus the rest of us as women of color who often when we do show up when we're assertive, I mean, I think we both have that common identity. I know I've like in my book, I've talked about how I don't love the term Asian to lump together so many beautiful, different diverse identities. But there is the very clear sort of commonality in the way women of various Asian identities are expected to be submissive and, you know, the worker be but not the leader, not the queen bee type of thing. And so whenever I have asserted myself or showed up to be my confident self, more often than not, I've faced so much of backlash and pushback. So you're absolutely right. There's no great way to show up as your full self.
Speaker 1: I find it so interesting that you, like when you were hearing all these conversations about imposter syndrome, you're like, yep, never, never experienced that. What do you think happened for you that that was never a thought that crossed your mind?
Speaker 2: I think I saw the systemic issues fairly early on. I think I saw what it was like within the Indian diaspora in Singapore to be around these brilliant, beautiful, you know, loving women who were just never given the respect, never given the agency that they deserved in a society that was very, you know, in a diaspora, which was very conservative, traditional, had very specific expectations of what women could do and couldn't do. And what I saw again and again through various points of my life was that difference between if you are affirmed, if you are told, like your voice matters, the way you're showing up is lovely and beautiful.
And I love it. The way I saw it with a lot of the men in my life compared with these, again, really powerful in certain circumstances, but very clearly silenced, held back, told that they weren't really worthy of anything beyond being wives and mothers. That cognitive dissonance, I had that early in my life, you know, and then it just carried me as I went farther along. Like, again, I want to say that it's not that I have not felt, I've not second guessed myself. It's not that I've not felt fear. It's not that before I've done big things in my life, I mean, I started a business. I, you know, have spoken at huge organizations from NASA to Pixar to, you know, the world economic forum.
I mean, like just, yes, I have that. But I have also been keenly aware that like a lot of those experiences of facing bias and facing people wondering whether, like, are you, are you here as the admin or are you the business owner? Like, oh, are you here representing someone else?
Are you supporting someone else? Like, facing that enough in my life made me very, very sure of the fact that I actually had everything that I needed inside me. And it was facing situations where I had been so second guessed in many ways, I guess, use that as fuel to push me along, you know, sitting in meetings where the white guy next to me, nobody questioned their authority. Nobody asked them where they went to university.
Nobody had, you know, nobody wondered if their decisions would stand up or were data backed or research backed. You know, when you when you face that enough in your life, it definitely you can really go two ways. You can either say, you know, oh my gosh, like I it's it's contributing to this fear.
And I want to I very much want to validate for people who have who take that course of action who, you know, for a variety of reasons that becomes their go to. Like, I'm not enough. I can totally see why that happens. And that's why I wrote this article. And I think for me, for some reason, it just it just fueled me to feel differently. It just fueled me to say, you know, actually, I do feel like I have it in me and I know I'm going to face these challenges and I do need to get ahead of it rather than let it define me.
Speaker 1: It's almost like you were able to see the BS behind the situation and be able to divorce this, you know, pathologizing from who you genuinely are as a human being, someone who does second guess themselves, someone who does like everybody suffers from moments of low self esteem. Everybody questions themselves and says, am I really qualified for this?
And wait a second, did someone give me a chance that I'm not ready for? I mean, these are all questions that everybody's had. But there's a difference between genuinely asking ourselves those self reflective questions and feeling like we have a syndrome. That's really the difference that you're pointing out.
Absolutely. For you, you just could see that, no, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm just a human being. And I know I can overcome these thoughts that I'm having and be very real because sometimes we do get ourselves into situations for which we're ill prepared. And that's also a very good thing to recognize and rectify. When you see women of color pathologizing each other with this term imposter syndrome, how does that make you feel? What goes through your mind?
Speaker 2: That's such a good question because I will say that one of the things that I feel good about or something I'm starting to see more off is actually more women of color. And I'm sure this conversation has happened in smaller groups even before our article and certainly after our article, very much more with women telling us this article did change the way that they saw imposter syndrome. So largely, I would say, especially among communities of women of color, I have noticed a lot more of that. I don't know, there's some BS around this.
It doesn't feel right and I don't really wear it as often. But what I have seen, where I have seen it really take shape and take flight is more in the way that white leaders and managers have put it on women of color and use terms like imposter syndrome or confidence issues. And the flip side of it is some of the way that we've received biased feedback, often based on which groups were part of. So in inclusion on purpose, in my book, I write about the biased feedback that women of color receive. And again, for Asian women, often it's that intersection of works really hard, does a good job, lacks leadership skills, right? All the way to the way, unfortunately, black women are called aggressive or angry and how that impacts their careers to several Latin women I spoke to for the book talked about how they've sort of been defined as either sort of hysterical and very sort of loud or the stereotype is, you know, there's a sort of sexy Latin woman stereotype, unfortunately, in workplaces. And seeing those, seeing against a more nuanced conversation around the way we're allowed to be in the workplace, what's acceptable in a white, Eurocentric sort of definition of professionalism, which, you know, there's been some good scholarship around and a lot of questions around like, in what ways are we accepted and in what forms are we not accepted from the way we wear our hair to the way we wear our clothes to the way our names are to, you know, all sorts of things. So it makes me it really fills me up with a lot of joy when I start seeing more of us coming together and questioning why these terms exist and do they really fit sort of where we're at. But when I have heard women of color tell me, you know, they still feel confidence issues, you know, many will say, I'll never use the word imposter syndrome around you again.
But when I when I do hear, you know, versions of it or variations of like, I don't feel confident or I don't feel like I have it in me or whatever it is. I'll always really try and point the conversation to, is it true? And where did that come from? And do you feel like you belong? Do you see people like you as your peers? Do you see people like you in leadership? I mean, I know what it's like to go to workplaces where I was literally the only end and that to being an Asian and Indian woman is surprising. But truly, like the only woman of color, the only person with a name that wasn't pronounceable to, you know, the majority of my peers, the only one who had grown up outside this country, outside the United States with a global experience.
So that starts to add up. Of course, you're going to be made to feel like you don't belong. Of course, you're going to be made to ask, like, am I too much? Does my name like, you know, from the from like literally from a young age, I've wondered, like, I really wish I had a different name or I wish I had like two names, like my home name that like my family would call me and a different name that that I could be known as in the workplace, you know, or in school, obviously, it starts early. It starts early in school. So I do, I really hope that people who listen to this, they are able to be they're able to ask those questions and assess it from that lens, rather than make it entirely about something they're lacking, because I can tell you like, having lived in so many different foreign countries, having lived in different work environments, it really does hurt my heart how much women of color ask themselves these questions, like ask themselves about how much they belong and they face those, you know, what we academically term microaggressions but really, you know, I call exclusionary behaviors because there's nothing micro about them. I, it really does. It's so, it's so exhausting. The mental load is just absolutely exhausting.
Speaker 1: I remember in an early part of your book, you said that something along the lines of, we may not even be able to imagine what a world of equality looks like. And I thought that's so true because, you know, you see these things where they ask people in the 1950s, what the year 2000 would look like. And they're trying to imagine all these things, oh, people will be in flying cars. And, and it's kind of like that. How can we possibly imagine this thing that feels like both like it should be now. But yet so far away, it would be like imagining the internet in the 1950s. How do we get there? Like what is the way to get even one step closer in our lifetimes to inclusive work environments but also just equality period?
Speaker 2: You know, Jackie, if you had asked me this a year ago, I would have said like, I don't know. I really would have because that part of me, of the dreaming, the dreaming and the believing, the hope part of me in many ways, I feel like it was practicalized. If that's such a thing, like it was literally practicalized away.
You know, I was told in a very sort of Asian family and growing up in an Asian country and then going to, you know, universities in the UK and the US and working in the corporate world. Like, yeah, there's like, if there's no data behind this, like it's not going to work. Like there's no way, there's no way like hope is going to be the thing that changes things. But I actually think part of, I mean, you know, it's a conversation you and I have had about, you know, being moms, about being mothers.
I think that can really, that really blows your, it really blowed my mind when I thought about like, when I think about like what type of world do I want to create and leave? Like what's the legacy I want to leave for my son who's now seven? Like, do I really want him to grow up in a world where people are still, you know, being told they have imposter syndrome and that they lack confidence? I mean, you know, for him as well as a brown boy, I mean, there is a little bit of that, right? Like there you can already see the social hierarchies forming for, you know, brown boys in the US where there's a little bit of like, okay, you're not quote unquote threatening, which is horrific and terrible and extremely racist challenge. I see among, you know, my son's black male friends, especially, but at the same time, there's also this with brown boys, you see this level of like, oh, you're really smart, but like you're going to be socially awkward.
Like we're not going to, we're not going to include you in, you know, in our games and in all the cool things that cool guys do. And when you see that sort of happening, when you see that hierarchy already forming at such a young age, like it does frighten me to imagine like what's the world going to look like in 20 years? Are we still going to be having these conversations? At the same time, it's renewed my commitment to really work towards a world where we aren't having those conversations that I think I really think it starts now. So one of the things I've been doing is really immersing myself in the scholarship and literature off, especially women, especially black women who have just created an imagined like this world where we aren't, you know, completely beholden to these ideas that we have been indoctrinated with and been told is the way to be.
I mean, I read Rest is Resistance in 2022 by Trisha Hersey about how like really it's radical in a world that tells you have to grind yourself to a bone and constantly be productive to seek out rest, to seek out a different way of being, right? I have, as I write my next book, Uncompete, really thought about like what were the definitions of success that I was conditioned with that I thought were non-negotiable all throughout my life, right? Like there's a very clear checklist, especially being a daughter of immigrants, right? Like get into a good school, get into a good college, get a good job, get married, make sure you have children.
Like the checklist was really clear and endless. And now as I, you know, as I'm in this stage of my life and writing on compete, I realize how much of having such a clearly narrow defined path, which actually often didn't really fit with what I wanted to do with my life, did build all these sort of insecurities. You know, I wouldn't say imposter syndrome, definitely, but definitely this feeling of like walking into workplaces and being conditioned to think like the way that I brought the version of me as my authentic self wouldn't be welcome.
And I had to change it, right? And I had to sort of be okay with constantly being told like, oh, you're not enough the way that you authentically are. And so I think that there is a future that I imagine that we definitely, you know, can create a world where we can show up as ourselves. But I think we really have to do that together in solidarity.
I think a lot of the way that the work around this unfortunately has happened has been in silos, right? It's like one person over here, one person over there. What we really need to do is band together and create a community of people who are looking to opt out of these very traditional definitions of professionalism and success and career success and leadership and create a new way.
Speaker 1: In a moment, Ruchika and I talk about parenting boys in a world of inequality. But first, a word from our nonprofit partner. In each episode, we feature a nonprofit chosen by a previous guest.
It's a small thanks to them and to our community. Today, Brian Hart Hoffman has chosen No Kid Hungry. Every child needs three meals a day to grow up happy, healthy and strong. But one in five kids in the US face hunger. That's 13 million kids.
It shouldn't be this way. That's why No Kid Hungry, a national campaign run by the nonprofit organization Share Our Strength is working to end childhood hunger in America by helping launch and improve programs that give all kids the healthy food they need to thrive. No Kid Hungry equips schools and community organizations across the US with the technical assistance, funds and resources they need to connect kids with healthy food. But they can't do this alone. To see a world where No Kid Hungry is a reality, it takes all of us and it's easy to make an impact. Just one dollar donated can help No Kid Hungry provide 10 healthy meals for kids. Join them.
Visit nokidhungry.org to learn more and get involved. Now back to our interview. How do you raise your son in this regard?
Like what are you saying to him? Because for sure I think about when I'm raising Kai and I've experienced the most amount of sexism after having a child. I never knew that being a mother would all of a sudden turn me into...
I mean, I can't even get into it because this would be like a five hour long podcast for sure. But the kinds of conversations I've had with my husband about equality has made me reconsider how I want to live my life and how I want my home to function so that my son never grows up with those same assumptions. What do you say to your son? What kind of situations come up for you that you feel would, I guess, shift those mindsets for him?
Speaker 2: I'm like, are we the same person? Because also, I remember being in the exact time of my life that you're in in terms of age of child and 100%. I have never faced as much sexism and faced as much of gender inequality and as much of truly obstacles where you really feel like... Like, will I ever be acceptable in society? Accepted in society, again, right? Because there's such a narrow definition of what's allowed and what you have permission to be in our society as a woman, right? And I think for a lot of us, motherhood especially, unless you're a celebrity, for many of us, it renders us in many ways obsolete, right? And we have data around the motherhood penalty, all of that in the workplace. So it doesn't come from like, I'm not making this up. Like, again, for those of us who need data, there's really good solid data out there to show, to reaffirm those feelings that we have.
At the same time, yeah, I think you have to push against it because it's so hard. I mean, from quote unquote, small things to, you know, when my son was four or five, he saw me putting nail polish on my fingers and he said, can I try? And I said, yes. And I, you know, and I, and I painted his fingernails to letting him or to encouraging him to buy clothes and, you know, things that are sort of cute and cuddly. He loves pink.
He loves cats and kittens. And again, growing up in a society where that was very discouraged, like it was very clear, like boys do this and girls do that. And of course, you never talked about gender beyond the binary. So there's that engaging him early in social justice work.
I remember he was like two or three and we went to the, you know, there was a big MLK junior day march and rally that was happening in Seattle. I mean, just being really thoughtful about like how I present who I am. And you can, it starts to come in like he said one day to me, he said, mom, I know that like boys are good at math, like you and like daddy and I love maths and you love, and you don't like it. Girls are not so good. And I really had to sit down and change that narrative.
Right. Like I had to sit down with him and say, like, don't ever say that again, you know, to ask it to, as he got older, I remember I was giving a talk that was a more shorter talk. It was like in, in the Pecha Kucha format. So five minutes long, you know, otherwise he won't be able to sit through a 45 minute kind of conversation, but it was a five minute one. And, you know, I asked my husband to bring him along. And the next day he actually said to me, he's like, so mom, can boys give speeches on stage?
You know, because he thought it was like only women could give speeches on stage. So I think it starts early and it starts often, you know, in our household now, like his dad does the entire what we call the breakfast service in the morning, you know, and in every way you really have to push against the, again, the way the systems have been set up, right? And in most schools, in most kindergartens, in most daycares, it's always mums on speed dial if the child is sick. Right.
It's always its mom who gets asked, like, oh, do you want to do a play date or do you want to, you know, get together for what not? And, and it's really, we do have to change that. And it requires constant effort.
It's never, you know, the I'll give you an example that was like so shocking to me. When my son was born, we, and I don't recommend this, but we had to make a trip and fly with him when he was two months old. So it was after his first set of vaccinations. And I went to this, you know, my at that time, his pediatrician, wonderful lady, Harvard Medical School train, like all of that stuff. And I was like, OK, so we're making the first flight with our like newborn, like almost, you know, just passing a born infant, like, what should we do?
What advice do you have? Blah, blah, blah. Like, you can't give us, you know, should we have this medicine pacifier, whatever? And she said, I only have one piece of advice. And I was like, yes, what is it?
And she said, have dad, Harry, your son onto the plane, because I've generally noticed that passengers are less upset if a baby is crying if they've seen the baby with their dad rather than held by mom. And I was just flabbergasted. I was like, what? And I mean, she wasn't wrong, by the way, unfortunately.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that kind of stuff makes me. I mean, the anger phase of this processing of inequality. I mean, I grew up with a very, very strong, strong-headed, stubborn mom. I mean, there are so many issues around inequality there where she was the one that did everything at home, plus made the money to bring home.
So that's an issue in itself. But I remember growing up thinking that feminism was it wasn't even needed anymore because women were just equal, like in my family, women were even stronger. And I didn't even realize that that sexism still existed until I was like, 30 maybe, 32, really 32 when I went to France and the older chefs were trying to pinch my butt and things like that.
And even then I was just laughing about it. And now, for example, my husband, because he's Chinese descent, he's read a lot about racism and race theory and all these things. And the fact that I even need to say to him, you know, if I were black and I was saying that I was suffering from racism in the world, would you wash your hands and say, that's not my problem?
Or would you fight this fight with me? It was only until I could say that because it could relate to other kinds of isms that he understood from a personal level or even from like a theoretical literary level. It wasn't until that that he started going, oh, got it. So I need to join you in this sexism thing. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you do. You do for me. You do for yourself and you do for our family. And that's just the end of that conversation.
And if you're not willing to do it, I guess I'm just going to do it myself and you're not going to come with me on it. And I had to be that strong in order to move the needle.
Speaker 2: And just really quickly, like I was going to say that the the shift I've seen, you know, both in my husband and a lot of the men in my life who are close to me is the understanding that like because you've had privilege and you've definitely, you know, you could face racism, you could have faced xenophobia. I mean, my husband is an immigrant to the United States as well, but definitely grew up with a lot of specifically male privilege.
And especially in India, where he grew up, you know, the first male child privilege. It requires a lot of that, I would say, like truly a growth mindset. And, you know, a lot of the work I've seen him personally done influenced how I wrote the first few chapters of inclusion on purpose, right? And especially the bridge framework, because it does require a sense of like humility and a true growth mindset. Like I don't know everything about this.
I can't even purport to know everything about facing bias and especially sexism and especially, you know, for that intersection of being a woman of color. But I'm really going to try. I'm really going to widen the lens that I've kind of seen the world with because that is what is required of me to be, again, a good, a good ancestor, a good human, a good father, you know, all of those things it should be. And now as I grow older, I'm like, yeah, it's table stakes, you know, like I hope my son's like, yeah, that's table stakes. Like that's like, you don't even like it's not even you shouldn't even be questioning that, but it's going to take a while to get there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I do feel like my husband, he definitely did step up. He is stepping up all the time. And he does have that mindset of, look, I don't get it. The only thing I do understand is that I have a privilege that I don't understand. In terms of growth mindset, do you think that there's a relationship to debunking imposter syndrome? We're all just trying to learn and become better. And that kind of takes off this feeling of insecurity, too. If we take imposter syndrome out of the picture, all we're just experiencing is insecurity without the pathology. If we were to feel or change our mindsets to be more like a growth mindset, we can then feel a little bit like, oh, maybe I don't need to feel insecure. Maybe this is just a part of learning. And so it kind of like diffuses this idea of imposter syndrome completely. Do you think?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there are a couple of things here. I really do. I really would love that to be the case for literally everyone, because I think we would give the world a lot more grace if we do that. I think a lot more, you know, I look into leadership, especially in the inclusion strategy practice I run. And it really astounds me how many leaders I meet even today, especially around issues of DEI and belonging who say, like, I can never make a mistake. Like I can never be vulnerable.
I need to have all the answers. Like, or even like, I'm scared to engage because I'm scared I'll get so much wrong. And I realize like we really have, it helps no one to create an environment where you cannot fail.
Right. And in this, I look to the amazing work of Dr. Amy Edmondson around psychological safety and intelligent failures and really how much when people are given permission to be vulnerable, to fail safely, to learn. We create that sort of growth mindset culture. And I think that's really important.
So I do think that would, that is very much the sort of golden ticket in many ways. But then this is where the side of me that has really studied bias and especially bias in the workplace to a very deep level is I don't want to be blasé about this because I do want to say that research also affirms that there is a specific group of people who we give second chances to, right? Like we go to, we say like, oh, you made a mistake. Like that's totally fine. We forgive you. You can learn from it.
You can get better from it. And women of color are largely not afforded that privilege. We literally often don't even get one chance. And for the first, the only and the different of us who do get that chance often, there's a very, very, very high rate of failure because we're pushed off the glass cliff, honestly. And so for me, I feel very nervous about or like I want to say that with a huge amount of caution, like, yes, absolutely. I would love for all of us to be recognized as human beings and as fallible, human.
It's very normal to be very human, to make mistakes, very human, to feel those feelings of, you know, confidence and insecurity, confidence challenges. But I just want to say that it's really perceived, rewarded and punished very differently based on a number of identities. And I don't want to downplay that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very true. I just think about my, my immigrant parents. And would they ever have felt okay making mistakes in a workplace because it's not just oops, it would be a case of am I going to get fired today?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's totally different. It's it's it's really it's for women of color, largely, especially it. We I cannot overstate what in the in the sort of society we have today. It is very, very hard to fail. It is very hard to find an environment which is psychologically safe for you to do that. And that's where I think for those of us who do have privilege, who do have power, it is very much our responsibility to create environments where we can. And then truly, I do think we would we would definitely reduce imposter syndrome. I mean, that's where I think there's this huge connection between imposter syndrome and pathologizing women and people of color. And really, the huge opportunity is creating a more equitable and inclusive workplace and society.
Speaker 1: As a last question, what would you say specifically to this person who who wrote in the question, how can I overcome imposter syndrome?
Speaker 2: A couple of things. I think it's very much worth asking, you know, where has that feeling of imposter syndrome slash insecurity come from? Where did it originate? And what were the sort of forces around you that made it exacerbate? I think that's a very important question to ask. I think it's important to assess in yourself. What are those situations where those feelings of being an imposter come up? And are there in general in your life, are there situations where you don't feel like you're an imposter?
And sort of what is the difference between the two? Because again, I've talked to a lot of people who say in the workplace, they feel very, very, you know, like they feel like they don't belong. But when they go home or they're in their sort of community where they feel, you know, they're welcome and they can be their full authentic selves, they have a very different experience. I think it's worth assessing like where and in what situations do those feelings come up? And truly, if I could, and if I may, I would say rather than sort of overcoming your imposter syndrome, is there a way to reframe it and think about it as maybe fuel in, you know, you asking yourself, having those very human feelings of like, I'm not fully sure I don't have all the answers. What else do I need to support me in this sort of leadership, you know, position or state I'm in, you know, and again, leadership could be making decisions around being a caregiver or, you know, in the workplace or in politics or wherever it is. But I do think what we don't ask ourselves often enough or we're not rewarded enough in situations of leadership to ask ourselves is what else do I need to feel supported here?
Right. And how can I build that? How can I build what I need to feel supported so that as I go into this big job or big role or high visibility situation or even make decisions that can be very fraught for me being a mother and a lot of the decisions that came around being a mother early in sort of my motherhood journey were felt very fraught. And I felt a lot of tension and a lot of like second guessing around myself. And the only way that I was able to overcome that, I don't call it imposter syndrome, the only way I was able to overcome that was to really sit down and ask myself, like, what do I need? And who do I need? And how do I go about building that?
Speaker 1: That's such good advice. I need to hear that right now. I am in that exact space where nothing seems right and everything seems like it's going to end up in some sort of disaster if I make the wrong decision and plaguing me at this moment. So this is a really helpful conversation.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry it is. And I know you have it in you. You know, I believe in you. I really do. When having walked these paths myself and in some ways I still do not in the same way as when my child was much younger. I can very much reaffirm that those feelings are very human and they will definitely abate or at least change and be less fraught.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being a part of this episode and for really, I don't know if I'm ever going to use imposter syndrome anymore as a phrase like genuinely.
Speaker 2: Mission unlocked accomplished.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to be like, well, okay, so do you mean you're human and you're just feeling some feels? Oh, okay. Why don't we talk about those instead? That's probably what I'm going to do from now on. Yes. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and I really, really hope that this conversation will help the asker and that they'll do away with the imposter syndrome title as well. Dear asker, I'm not sure if you're a woman or a woman of color or straight or transgender, but I know you're human and I don't know what's causing you to question yourself and your ability. But let's agree not to call it imposter syndrome anymore. Let's not fall down that same path of making ourselves wrong because we do what all humans do. We second guess ourselves.
Let's not make ourselves ill because we self-reflect and feel insecure about not having it figured out all the time. And if you're a woman, a woman of color, let's not blame ourselves for feeling inadequate when in so many ways the world was set up to make us feel just that. If I look back into my own history, I can understand why I second guess myself to the degree that I do, why I felt automatically apologetic when I've negotiated for myself at work or in relationships, why my default is to be thankful and not to cause trouble because I grew up in an immigrant family where that was the mantra. I see why I've stood awkwardly to the side at cocktail parties, unsure of the inherent value I bring to a conversation outside of my achievements and titles. I can see why I make myself less authoritative in order to seem less threatening, only to then question my own authority because I've been putting myself in that box for so long that I actually forgot I was the one that put myself in there in the first place. I can see why when learning to be a parent, it feels like it's never right or never enough as a mother.
I can see that growing up in a predominantly white community always made me feel wrong. I had the wrong eyes, the wrong profile. Apparently my face was too flat.
I had the wrong lunch, my family was too loud and seemed to others like they were fighting when they spoke. I understand why I hid my chimeseness. I understand why I never felt like I belonged. As I got older and I tried to find my way in the workplace, I was praised for being the quote good kind of Asian, the one that worked hard and was subservient, the one that was first to arrive and the last to leave, the one that was accepted as long as I was not too demanding or asserted my opinions too much because then I would flip into the stereotype of being a tiger lady. I was careful to be pleasant and beautiful, but also careful not to cross the razor thin line into inviting fetishism. And even as I write this, it breaks my heart because though this was my experience, I didn't have to suffer the plethora of other biases that women of other ethnicities have to face like being called hysterical or angry just for being me. And though I have experienced racism, subtle and insidious, I must recognize that there are so many others that have not benefited from this privilege of being a more quote, palatable kind of Asian in the preposterous scale of racism.
Even when my career was more public and it seemed like I was succeeding, when I was the only female or minority to speak on panels, the only female or minority in speaker lineups surrounded by white cis men, the sneaky thought did cross my mind. Was I chosen because of my ability and all the hard work I've put into my expertise? Was I chosen for me? Or was I chosen because I conveniently ticked off two minority boxes at once? I think it's sad that I wondered that, that I second guessed my value, especially because I know deep down that I am so capable, so accomplished, so qualified, that I did belong. And yet with all things that I've done in my career, I still can't see myself without this shade of wrongness.
And as a parent, being a mother has subjected me to expectations of martyrdom and perfection, standards that I've yet to witness being placed on any father. But I think this ridiculousness ends here for me. I know it'll take me a little bit to undo a lifetime of narrative, but I am no longer going to pathologize myself with a syndrome. I no longer want to spend time convincing myself of my wrongness simply because I learned from a young age that there was no place for me to be right. I will no longer make myself small for the very systems that tell me I have to do this can be threatening and unrelatable themselves. Yes, I will second guess myself. I will self reflect, maybe sometimes a little too much, but I will also assess why I feel insecure, what I need to feel secure, what tools, what community I need to lift me up and spur me towards the goal I choose for myself, ones I will achieve as myself. Dear asker, I hope you might decide to do the same.
If not for anything, but that it's a pity to feel you don't belong in your own life. And if you need one supportive place to start with, let this be it. You can do it. You are capable.
And if you haven't yet the tools and skills, you have everything it takes to get them. No, you're not an imposter. You're a human being in the process of expanding. That's uncomfortable and sometimes requires dismantling old narratives. Though, in moments of greatest doubt, as we all have, remember that I believe in you.
And I'm sure there are many others around you that do too. Thank you, Ruchika, for shifting our perspectives on imposter syndrome and inspiring us. Asker, I hope you got something helpful out of this. If anything, note that you're not alone. You see, we all struggle. We all mourn. We all yearn, question, laugh and cry. No matter our age, background or titles, at our core, we're all not so different. You and I. And here's next month's question.
You give your all, you burn out, you resign, and your boss could care less. How do you restart fresh? If you feel inspired to respond to this asker and you have a short word of wisdom for them, write to us on the contact page on unedivepodcast.com or dms on Instagram at unedive.podcast. And of course, as always, submit your questions there too. If you enjoyed this episode, like and subscribe to our channel, which helps others who might be interested find us and feel free to share this episode with someone who might find it helpful as well. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Jackie Kielles and here are some words of wisdom.
Speaker 3: My story of overcoming imposter syndrome happened about a year and a half ago when I happened to sit next to a CEO of a major luxury brand by chance at a tech conference. And four weeks later was offered a role to be the director of new tech reporting directly to him. Now I'd never worked in a brand at this level. I'd worked freelance for small businesses and startups before. And the tech that I was the expert in was every evolving in the world very new. And I'd only been working in it really for six months to a year. So I really questioned if he'd made a mistake hiring me almost every day for the first few months. I was able to overcome this with many mentors, but with a few key lessons that I learned from people on LinkedIn and colleagues who were able to guide me towards a better mindset.
So the first guide I would say is that the world really doesn't present you these opportunities if you're not ready for it. So the fact that this came into my lap was meant that I could take this on. The second is that the person who hired me is very intelligent and very good at his job. So it's actually quite a disrespect to his intelligence to think that he might have made a mistake.
He really did choose me for a reason. Another point is that you're really not supposed to be 100% qualified for any job. Every job is meant to be something you learn and grow into and that the goal is not to be perfect, but to be constantly evolving and doing better.
If you were the best 100% person for the job, you'd be too expensive for this role and probably not available and companies know that. So it really didn't matter for me if I was perfect, but that I grew and got better each day. And as soon as I focused on that, it helped me relax. It helped me really focus on just producing work, making mistakes and growing myself into this role as well as growing the tech in this company. And what that resulted in is that at the end of my one year contract, I was enewed with a raise and I've led the company to being a leader in this innovation in its category. So though I still have a lot to learn and that imposter syndrome still comes in and out, I definitely feel a lot more in place in this company and excited to continue learning and growing into this role.
Speaker 4: It's difficult to even attempt answering this without beginning to question if I have done enough and know enough to merit answering this question. Isn't that just the nature of this dreaded feeling? I believe imposter syndrome is the burden of the creative. It is those of us who are creating our own paths that tend to fall into this feeling trap because the road ahead is completely up to us and doubt creeps in when we don't know the answer or what direction to take.
How to overcome? Consider how you are defining the standards to which you are holding yourself up to. Can you redefine them by framing or lowering your expectation even by a little of what success looks like to you? Someone once told me if you're not embarrassed about what you put out into the world then you've spent too much time on it. I think this advice also applies to imposter syndrome.
If you feel that inkling of a feeling that you aren't supposed to be where you want to be, it's simply fear creeping in. Know that experience and knowledge exist as a continuum. There is no point to achieve in which you finally have it all figured out. It simply isn't possible.