Episode 15: As an aspiring author, how do I get vulnerable when writing about my life?
Today Jackie and her guest will be exploring a question about vulnerability in writing. Jackie is on the precipice of writing her second book, To You Who Wonders, an advice column meets memoir partly inspired by this podcast. It seemed fitting to answer this question as a way to celebrate the announcement of this next book!
They write:
I am an aspiring author working on a non-fiction book about work and motherhood that will include stories from my personal life. I enjoyed your memoir so much and I found at times your courageous willingness to share your stories so inspiring. I’m wondering if you could share any advice for writers who would like to share their stories but often find themselves always holding back, softening certain details or struggling to decide which stories to reveal vs conceal. How did you stay so brave during your writing process? And how does it feel to have your stories out there after publication?
Thank you so much! - Dallas
Tune in to hear Jackie explore this topic with her amazing guest this week Bhavna Chauhan an Editorial Director at Doubleday Canada, Penguin Random House Canada. She was also the editor that worked with Jackie on her bestselling memoir, The Measure of My Powers, and is a wealth of knowledge and a true expert in the field.
We hope that you get something helpful out of this conversation. If anything, know that you’re not alone. You see, we all struggle, mourn, yearn, question, laugh and cry. No matter our age, background, or titles, at our core, we are all not so different, You & I.
This podcast is produced by More Good Media.
Episode Resources:
Jackie Kai Ellis: Website / Instagram
Bhavna Chauhan: LinkedIn
You & I Podcast: Website
Resources on finding trusted professional help can be found here.
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The following transcript was automatically generated. Please be aware that it may contain errors. Thank you for your understanding.
INTRO:
Welcome to You & I.
I am Jackie Kai Ellis and it’s my genuine hope that through sharing our most vulnerable stories, we know, in the moments where it matters so much, that we are not alone.
DISCLAIMER:
It needs to be said, I am not a professional, just someone with some personal experience to share. I do hope this is helpful, but as always, take the advice that resonates and ignore what doesn't. And don’t hesitate to seek out professional help through a trusted source. We’ve provided links on our website in case they are needed.
THIS MONTH’S QUESTION:
Today we will be exploring a question about vulnerability in writing. I am on the precipice of writing my second book, To You Who Wonders, an advice column meets memoir partly inspired by this podcast. It seemed fitting to answer this question as a way to celebrate the announcement of this next book!
They write:
I am an aspiring author working on a non-fiction book about work and motherhood that will include stories from my personal life. I enjoyed your memoir so much and I found at times your courageous willingness to share your stories so inspiring.
I’m wondering if you could share any advice for writers who would like to share their stories but often find themselves always holding back, softening certain details or struggling to decide which stories to reveal vs conceal. How did you stay so brave during your writing process? And how does it feel to have your stories out there after publication?
Thank you so much! - Dallas
GUEST:
To explore this with me, my guest is Bhavna Chauhan, Editorial Director at Doubleday Canada, Penguin Random House Canada. She was also the editor that worked with me on my bestselling memoir, The Measure of My Powers. She’s a wealth of knowledge, a true expert in the field and she’s my amazing friend.
Here’s my conversation with Bhavna.
INTERVIEW:
Jackie: [00:00:00] Hello, Bhavna. I'm so excited that you're here. You're one of my favorite people on the face of the planet. I'm so excited that we actually get to spend time together and talk. This is
Bhavna: awesome. I'm so happy to be here. Likewise, you are one of the dearest people to me. So I'm so, I was so honored that you asked me to be on your amazing podcast.
I'm really
Jackie: excited. So you are the perfect person to talk to about this because you are the one that basically navigated My vulnerability through the last book we worked on, which is the measure of my powers and I guess as an editor How do you see the role of vulnerability in? Writing something that is nonfiction and what is the importance of it for you?
I
Bhavna: always well, I think it's essential. I really do. I know, you know, it's vulnerability is such a weighty and heavy word. It [00:01:00] really is. I think people just get kind of paralyzed at the thought of it. But I do think it's really essential. I think there's so much that competes for. First of all, from a practical sort of point of view, there's so much that competes for a reader's attention, just getting a reader to a book sometimes in this day and age can be so difficult, but I think the vulnerability just kind of makes you human to a reader.
And I think that point of connection is essential from an editorial standpoint. I always talk about how long the editorial processes, Jackie, you know. I mean, when did we sign the first book? It was 2015, 2014.
Jackie: Is that when we signed it? Yeah, maybe. I mean, I just know that it took so long that at the point that I was like, I can't do this anymore.
I said, if you make me read this manuscript one more time, I'm going to peel my corneas off. You said that to me. You did. [00:02:00] And then you said, okay, well, I think we're done then. I think we're done. I said we're
Bhavna: done.
Jackie: Yeah. So that's how long it takes, the editorial process, yeah, or editing process.
Bhavna: It takes a long time and this is actually a very intimate relationship, right?
Like we're, we're in it together. There were moments that I was the only person who had read your manuscript or that draft or, or we'd had these long conversations where we were sharing our personal experiences and stuff. Maybe that didn't end up in the book, but we were connected on this like deep level and I think because it's such a long process, we have to sort of connect on something.
And how do we connect? But by showing up ourselves, right? And in my experience as an editor, you know, the most magical or most successful author editor relationships have been those that had vulnerability at the center of it, even if it was for a novel, you know, [00:03:00] and it's not just, you know, the author has, it's on the author to sort of bare their soul and share it.
I mean, I also have to do the same, right? Like we have to connect on a level Um, so editorially, it's really important to me that on the page, I can see the person in some way. It's really, I think I said that to you when, well, you walked into the Random House offices, the Penguin Random House offices, and you were going to write a bake book, right?
Yes, a baking book. You were going to have recipes for croissant and cookies and you came in and I remember I remember what you were wearing, and I remember what you looked like, and I thought, Okay, she's going to do this amazing baking book. And you had this proposal, and there were recipes there for the croissant and maybe a cookie, but what I was drawn to were the stories.
You had written these essays attached to these recipes, and I was struck by that. And [00:04:00] you were who you were in person, but on the page you were someone else as well. And I, I connected to that person and, and I just thought there's so much more here. I mean, there is so much more, right? You
Jackie: remember that? I do.
And I don't, I keep on thinking back at that time. And I was like, I don't think you guys knew what you had coming at you. Stories about deep, deep depression and anxiety and eating disorders and suicide. I mean, you thought I was going to write a baking book. Well, I'm not by the time the proposal came to you guys knew, but I don't know if you Knew what would come out of this and how deep things could potentially go.
No, and
Bhavna: right before I made the offer, you were back in Toronto and we met. I remember we were in a small boardroom in our offices and I said, Jackie, [00:05:00] I'm going to make an offer, but I just want to know, are you ready to go deep?
Jackie: Are you ready?
Bhavna: And you looked at me and you said, yes, I am. And we, and you went there, you went there, but you know, I could see the vulnerability and I knew, I mean, your croissant recipe is amazing.
Those chocolate chip cookies are incredible. There are people make them all the time. I love them. But I think what people are drawn to is who you are on the page and how you fill out this idea of you. People know you from online, right? And, and you're this like beautiful, polished human being who has this gorgeous taste and, and all that, but you.
On the page, you show such humanity, and I think it's really important for a point of connection, and, and I saw that when the book went on sale, I saw it, people would stand in line and just want to talk to you, they, they connected to that. Yeah,
Jackie: I remember really deciding for a long time whether or not I even [00:06:00] wanted to write a book this revealing.
Because it isn't easy to write about. your moments of greatest shame. It's not easy to write about, you know, things that you feel like don't put you in the greatest light. I often thought about, okay, what's life going to be like after this book comes out? Am I going to be able to go on a date knowing that this person could potentially have heard about the book or read the book and know all of my mommy, daddy issues and how can I walk into a boardroom and put up a front?
But to me, I felt like If I were to write this book and be as vulnerable and open and raw as possible, knowing that I could never show up, In any situation as anything other than myself, well, that might be a worthwhile practice because aren't we all just trying to be ourselves in every situation? And how, what a freeing thing to experience.
And so that's kind of why I wanted to [00:07:00] do it. But also like you were saying, It's not worth reading, per se, unless the real person is there, because people can smell when there, there's BS, I think. I think so. Yeah. And also, I, I just have to say how pivotal you were in that process of drawing out that vulnerability in me and our relationship throughout the writing process.
I just remember at the end of it, you said, Oh, okay, I think you've hit a wall. My job was to push you as far as you could possibly go. And I think you've, and Oh yeah, that's right. This is what he said. You go, I actually thought that you would have stopped way long time ago, but you just kept on going deeper and deeper to me.
What you've done to pull out vulnerability is just Genius, because I didn't even really know you were doing it until you told [00:08:00] me that you were pushing me the entire time. How do you do that?
Bhavna: I have to say, I think you and I have this really special alchemy, I think, in that a lot of our editorial conversations were conversations, right?
Like we were just talking. And when I describe editing to anyone, I always say, I'm just asking questions. I'm your first reader and I'm asking questions on behalf of the reader, and I think that's the place from which I edited with you. I also am always looking for those points of connection for the reader.
I'm always looking, your story is so Singular. I had never heard anything like it. You were this woman who had gone through so much in your life in such a condensed period. You had all these experiences like gorillas in the Congo and divorce and opened a bakery and it was successful and, and all these [00:09:00] things.
And I. I just remember thinking, but still there's so much to connect on here and my point was just to, you know, draw that out, find those points of connection. And I mean, to be honest, I often do that from a place of like, seeing myself, you know, I really have to see myself in. in a book I'm working on in some way.
Um, I think if I were to look at my list of authors and my list of books, grief is often a theme that runs through all of them. It's a, it's a, it's a central theme in my own life, I think, just processing of grief and living with grief. And I think I operate from a really empathetic Place of just sort of understanding and wanting to know more.
Maybe I'm seeking answers to questions I have for myself. Maybe that's it. But I just come from a place of what would the reader want to know right now? And it's just asking the questions. Right. And like I said, there are stories. I know, I know stuff about you, Jackie, that it's not [00:10:00] even in the book. I remember I once referenced a conversation we had during one of the edits and it was after the book was done.
And you looked at me and it could have been when we were in France and you looked at me and you said, I don't even remember that conversation. I don't even remember that we had that conversation. And I was like, yeah, no, no, we talked about that, you know, but it informed so much. I understood you and I understood the process.
And I think building a relationship is really important. We're working together for a long time. We have to kind of align and you have the writer has to feel like their editor understands them and understands the project really deeply.
Jackie: Yeah, and I do think that you being vulnerable with me and telling me about your life and why grief is so important to you and for me to write.
knowing that you're asking me questions from a place of complete understanding, empathy, and connectedness. Like to me, that was [00:11:00] so important because as you're asking me all these questions, like, I mean, you basically, Not only encouraged me to write but you gave me some of my greatest writing lessons because as you know I I'm not a trained writer.
I've never studied it. I never even thought about writing, you know growing up thinking Okay, what do I want to be when I grow up? There was no Nowhere in my, in, in my imagination that I could have become a writer. And I remember you said, um, don't, uh, don't tell, show what the story is. Is that yeah, show don't tell.
Yeah. Show don't tell. Yeah. And I remember being like, wow, that's amazing. And then realizing later that this is literally writing 101. It's like what you learn in like the first writing class, like the first sentence that comes out of a teacher's mouth is, you know, show, don't tell. [00:12:00] But you're right. That is, that is the way I write now.
And it also is one of the most, the hardest things to do to, yes, to build the context of a story. To. Explain what something smelled like and felt like and whether it was sunny or rainy, whether your hair was feeling frizzy or not, and what did that feeling feel like in your body? Where was it in your body?
You know, how did it feel to cry? What kind of noises were you making when you cried? And all of those things add up so that the reader can then make their own conclusion about how they feel about the situation as opposed to you telling them how they feel. And that was just such an amazing piece of gold that you gave me as a writer.
You, you just, you basically taught me how to write, I think.
Bhavna: You have such, like you have the storytelling ability that it was just a little bit of shuffling in my mind to get [00:13:00] you to readers, like, you had the story and the vulnerability was such a big part of it, and that whole, you're right, Show Don't Tell is writing 101, but it is one of the hardest things to do, I say this to authors who Have a few books under their belts.
Like I say, I give this feedback a lot. And it's because in some ways you have to dig a little deeper, you know, whether you're writing a novel or a memoir or general nonfiction, you've got to dig a little deeper. bit deeper to do that. And I don't think, I don't know, we can have a long conversation about our culture and our society and all of that, but I think it's a muscle, right?
Like if you're not used to doing it, especially as women, like, you know, women, women of color, like I think, you know, to be vulnerable and show that of yourself can be really difficult. It can be really challenging for a lot of people. So it is writing one on one, but it is the thing that people struggle with the most.
It's building a scene or illustrating a moment so a reader can [00:14:00] enter it themselves.
Jackie: Would you say that, okay, well, for me, I think I would rather read writing that's not as good, but so raw and honest than writing that is beautiful, but Veiled.
Bhavna: I agree. I think to your earlier point, I think readers have a bullshit detector.
I really do. I think, I think people can tell what's authentic when things are just prettily like wrapped up. It's not real. It's what I love about measure of my powers is that you ended it in this very way. It was raw, the way that you ended it, it wasn't bow tied up and off it goes and happily ever after.
It was a bit of a question mark, wasn't it? And I think people love that. I don't know if you heard that. I heard that a lot after your book was published, that the ending was surprising, but in a good
Jackie: way. That's so interesting because I remember a few months [00:15:00] ago. We chatted about the measure of my powers, and I said that what I didn't like about it was that it was a little too perfect.
And you were like, no, that's not at all what I thought, and I had to go back and re read the ending. So I was like, what the heck? What the heck did I write? I don't even remember. Because I remember the process of writing, and I remember the entirety of it. It doesn't parse out into small stories for me.
The, the book has one singular feeling when I think about it. It's not like, Oh, this feeling and this feeling. It's like this large, what is the feeling? I don't know. Oh, I don't even know how to describe it. It's it's a mixture of, Oh gosh, this is, this is when I get vulnerable. It's a mixture of pride and a bit of embarrassment.
Yeah. Because I've revealed some of these things in the past [00:16:00] that, that I'm proud of the fact that I've revealed them, but there are some things that I wrote in there where I can go back and see them and go, Oh, you were in a place where you couldn't be completely honest to yourself yet. And so you were writing from a place of complete honesty.
But I think that there was still a little bit of like, no, I need to forgive in the most perfect way to let go in the most perfect way. And I need to, um, even show my vulnerability in the most perfect way. But what I really like where I am now, and I'm not saying that I did that even consciously back then.
I think that is as raw and real as I could have gotten. Yeah. Now, however many years later, like it's what, almost 10 years later, I realized that there is this amount of shame for being in the in between. And there is, [00:17:00] you know, it's like, how do you tell a story of vulnerability when you have not figured out where there is no ending, where you haven't said, Oh, I figured out what that was and that it was this, and let me tell you about it.
And I've, I've been able to process it. But how do you write? A book about your vulnerability when you haven't even yet yet processed it for yourself like I always think about this. Especially with motherhood, there's so much judgment and shame around not being a great mother. Like this, it's like the greatest crime a woman could commit to, to not be a perfect mother because you're either perfect or you're horrible.
There's like almost
Bhavna: no in between. You must love it. Right. You must love it. Yeah. Yes.
Jackie: Oh, you must love that only. Only.
Bhavna: And all the time. Or a
Jackie: bad mother. Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. But I just think about like. There was one night in, in [00:18:00] Paris, and I actually recently wrote about this, but I'm going to share it anyway, where Kai was crying all night long.
I couldn't get him to go to sleep. I couldn't get him to stop crying. Nothing was working. I was miserable. And the next day, we were Taking a walk along the Parisian streets, so romantic, getting a croissant, I gave him the end of it, I had the rest, but I was like, what kind of shame would I have felt if I had a crowd of people that didn't know me, strangers around me, as my child was hysterically crying and I couldn't do a thing, but sit there next to him and cry myself.
So what will it take for us to accept the vulnerability that comes with I am in the middle of crying because my child is crying and I don't know what to do, but not telling it from the day after when we're splitting a croissant perspective. And so that's why I sometimes [00:19:00] have a little bit of.
Embarrassment, I don't know, but just a little bit like I can, I can smell my own BS monitor in there, but only from the perspective of who I am now looking at who I was then, right? Because there was no BS when I was writing it. It was just, it's just now I'm like, Oh, you still need it to be so perfect.
Yeah. Yeah. And what will it take for us to be. So vulnerably imperfect that we can write that on a page and say, I don't
Bhavna: know, I don't know. So you can, you can see that in yourself now when you go back to the book. What do you think changed for you? What was it? Is it, was it just. age? Was it, you know, was it, you know, getting, getting more life experiences?
Like what, what
Jackie: was it? I haven't parsed through it a hundred percent yet, but I have asked myself that question. And I think part of it was that after the book came out, [00:20:00] it felt like for some reason, I, and I'm sure this is just a pressure that I was putting on myself, but it felt like people were expecting me to have the answers.
Or to be super aligned or to always forgive, um, in that very, very sort of like angelic way where, oh yes, I was so hurt and yet I'm still thanking my ex husband in the acknowledgements at the end. Things like that, which are, which were, were so genuine. I think that I felt this, I don't even know the word, I didn't feel the permission.
To be in process.
Bhavna: Yeah. And not your higher self, right? Like,
Jackie: Yes, that's exactly what I was trying
Bhavna: to say. Yeah. Yeah. I think about this a lot in the context of motherhood. Like I'd have these moments when I was. So we are very close in this, um, in this experience of motherhood. My daughter is a year [00:21:00] older than your son, and I think we had a very similar kind of entry into motherhood and, and, um, kind of reality, you know, we, I think we were, we were faced with the reality of motherhood and how tough it is, um, in a similar way.
And I remember just kind of being in the throes of it and hating this thing that I had taken on, certain I'd made a mistake, almost. And I would say to myself, I'd say to my husband, what would my higher self want me to do? I'm trying to be my higher self and such a pressure, like what is my higher self?
Who is it? She's, she's this angel. She's an angel who loves motherhood and it's like, Oh, I, I know that. This time is going to go quickly, so I'm going to soak it up, and I'm not going to get frustrated, and I'm sleep deprived, but it doesn't matter. Look how beautiful they are, and my life is so fulfilled. It matters so much, and you know, I can't imagine life without her anymore, and I [00:22:00] can't, but I certainly remember life without her.
Like, I do remember it.
Jackie: Yeah. And it was great. It was
Bhavna: great. I loved it. I loved it. Yes. I loved it. I was a full person then too, right? I was. I'm just a different full person now. Um, but it's this pressure to be your higher self all the time when I sometimes don't know who that person is. I haven't figured it out yet.
Or sometimes I don't want to be that person, or I don't know. I don't like that person, you know?
Jackie: Yeah. And maybe our higher selves. Involves us not being our higher selves. Totally, like our
Bhavna: most human selves. Yeah.
Jackie: And like, what is, not to say that we shouldn't strive to be better humans all the time. I mean, I do think that the more we know ourselves, it is good.
But I do think that it would almost be a greater goal to accept and love ourselves as we are, than to try to be higher selves. Because by loving [00:23:00] and accepting ourselves, we, by nature, will become some version of a higher self, whatever that looks like, but it may not look like I have a halo on my head, it just might look like I have a lot more empathy for the person standing beside me that I don't know, who knows, I don't know what it looks like, I haven't I don't know.
I
Bhavna: think, nor have I, but I do think, I think a lot about my, my daughter and, you know, she's almost three and she's a toddler and, and everyone's like, Oh, the terrible twos, the terrible twos aren't bad. She's just two and she's figuring out the world. That's it. And I have these moments where, you know, I'm so patient with her.
I'm by nature, a very impatient person. And before I became a mother, I was very worried, you know, what kind of mom will, I'm so impatient. With her, I have this patience. I have this understanding that she is figuring it out. I have endless empathy for that experience of like [00:24:00] kind of being an alien in this world and just being like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
And I want to be that person who has so much patience for her and so gentle. And, and I say to my husband, and I've been saying this since, since my daughter was born, I just want to meet her where she is. Wherever she is, I want to meet her where she is. She's not rolling over yet, I want to meet her where she is.
She's not potty trained yet, I want to meet her where she is, right? She's not jumping, I want to meet her where she is. I don't know why I don't turn that on myself and meet myself where I am. And I feel like that is your higher self, right? That is the person who is saying, I see you, I see you, I see yourself, you know, and I understand you and I think about that a lot.
The patience we have for our children, we don't really lend ourselves. Oh
Jackie: gosh, I was just talking about this yesterday with my husband, Joe. Just that there are some things in our [00:25:00] lives that can only be healed through love, through the process of loving and being loved. And these, these very experiences we have with our children, or even our partners, it's like full circle moments of the, of the times that we didn't feel love, connect back together when we can either give love or allow ourselves to be loved.
It's so, it's so beautiful. In a moment, Bhavna and I will talk about our upcoming book together, To You Who Wonders. But first, a word from our non profit partner. In each episode, we feature a non profit chosen by a past guest. Today is a non profit chosen by Brian Hart Hoffman. It's a small thanks to him, and to our community.
Ethan's Heart, Bags for [00:26:00] Blessings, also known as Ethan's Heart, began with a boy named Ethan D. Hill. At six years old, Ethan was moved by the sight of Mr. Marcus, a homeless gentleman living beneath a local freeway underpass. He encountered Mr. Marcus on his way to school every single day. Determined to make a difference, Ethan, with his 100 of Christmas money, researched the needs of individuals experiencing homelessness.
And purchased essential items for Mr Marcus and others residing under the underpass. He wanted to offer a glimmer of hope during the holiday season. This act of kindness marked the humble beginnings of Ethan's heart. Year after year, Ethan continued to dedicate his own money and accept donations from the community to create care packages for street outreach initiatives.
As time went on, Ethan's Heart expanded its mission to address the pressing needs of the homeless community in and around Birmingham, [00:27:00] Alabama. Today, Ethan's Heart provides emergency food, clothing, sleeping bags, first aid supplies, and hygiene products. They also identify community members struggling with mental health challenges or abuse, and they connect them with relevant service referrals.
Recently they've just launched their free mobile store and educational unit bringing essential supplies directly to those in need. The setup of the mobile store aims to restore dignity to individuals who have lost so much, offering them the joy of shopping for their necessities, free of charge, and without shame.
For ways to get involved, visit their website@ethansheartbhm.org. Know back to our conversation. Okay, you know what? I get this question a lot, actually. The legal issues, well maybe, maybe not even legal, but just the issues around [00:28:00] revealing too much about the people in the stories that are not necessarily yourself.
And I know with the memoir, we, we actually were very conscious about how we told the story. So that it would be. respectful first and foremost, but also we wouldn't run into any kind of legal issues. And so I know a lot of writers actually have this question is what do you share? What do you not share? I
Bhavna: think, um, I think the way I always talk to authors about this is, is this piece of info necessary to tell your story?
Is it essential? Like, does it, Add something to your story. Is it do we need it? And I think if the answer is yes, let's figure out a way to work that in. And if the answer is no. We don't need it because here's the thing, I never want a book that someone [00:29:00] spends two, three, four years writing to sort of, I don't want that experience to be hijacked by something salacious about someone else.
Do you know what I mean? I never want that attached to the story. I at that point will know the author's intention for the story and I want to be as true to that as possible. You didn't want to write a measure of my powers. As an expose on your ex husband, you were writing from a place of, I want to share my story.
I think people can connect. I want to be vulnerable. I want to show that there can be some perfection in the imperfection and that a journey can ebb and flow. I can, you know, that, that's the evolution of a human being. And I remember we sent the manuscript to our legal counsel, and I think there was maybe one change, or one question even, right?
You know, Now, laws in the US and Canada are different when it comes to libel. We're, I think, in Canada, a lot [00:30:00] more strict, so we err on the side of You know, just protecting the writer as much as possible. Now, let's say you think you have a piece of, you have some details that you want worked in. Um, how do we do that?
I mean, I work very closely with our legal counsel because I just want it to be, you know, as clear and careful as possible. But I think it's always, if you're coming from a place of this is my rendering of this experience. And this is how I perceived it and that is sort of conveyed in the writing, um, that's sort of how we approach it.
It has to be essential to the storytelling though.
Jackie: Yeah, for sure. And I, I actually, you know, there was nothing in the book that I would rewrite because I wrote it in such a way that I felt like was only the necessary was left in there. And only the parts that I felt like were necessary to bring [00:31:00] out. The connection to the reader, but there was one thing that I don't think I would have put in there really.
And Yeah, and it wasn't until I had my own child that I realized that it wasn't necessary, and it was a part in the book where I talk about my cousin having passed away, and at the time I didn't know it But we weren't talking about it as a family. I had no clue, because I wasn't really that connected with the family and, and this was my story and I was, I was sort of telling this part of the story to say the reasons why I didn't commit suicide is because I saw the impact that suicide had.
on my family, but I didn't realize that there was still a lot of sensitivity around the issue. And in retrospect, I'm like, [00:32:00] I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have touched that. It wasn't necessary because the thought of losing a child and seeing it written in a book, that's not really, it just wasn't necessary. I could have said, It was someone else, someone I knew, I didn't need to pinpoint any specifics around who it was.
And I do regret that because I think, you know, if you were a parent that lost a child, the last thing you want to do is to be reminded of it in any way, or to be respectful of another person's grieving process, whatever that looks like, because it's not my place to infer. And so I do think that that's the one thing that I probably would have stayed away from.
But I do think. that it's a good example of, is it necessary to illustrate the story? Does the reader connect with that story anymore because I, like I gave more specifics or less specifics? I don't think so actually in [00:33:00] retrospect. I don't think so either. And so, yeah, and so that it, it, I think it will make me a more respectful writer to have made.
Made that decision in the past, but um, I think it also is important to realize that when we do write stories that involve other people, they are our versions of that story. And when we think about it that way, and that these, this other person, this is not a conversation when you write a book, it's written in black and white and it's out there.
The other person doesn't really have an opportunity to respond. And so we do need to respect, I think, that this is a one sided conversation as well. Yeah,
Bhavna: absolutely. You taught, you wrote a lot about your family, you wrote about your ex husband. Did you get any feedback from anyone? Like just on, on, you know, your kind of rendering or inclusion of, you know, these people in your story?
Even [00:34:00] if it was, In a small sort of way.
Jackie: Yeah, I mean, I sent the manuscript to my ex husband because I wanted him to read it beforehand. And it had already gone through the lawyers before we sent it, so we knew that it was On the level from a legal perspective, and he wrote back, gosh, you know, we were fighting about these things, even back then and however many years later like who's to know what's the truth anymore.
We were fighting about the truth even back then so I do think that regardless of what his response was obviously he wasn't like out toasting with champagne that night after he read the manuscript, you know, like nobody would be. But we have to give him so much credit because Nobody wants to read their ex wife's version of a horrible breakup that you also [00:35:00] had to go through.
You're so right. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And that person has their own heartaches and pains and, and regrets and feeling indignant about this thing or that thing. They have their whole experience and it's also very painful because as much as I loved him, he also loved me. And so for him to. To say just that I think is probably the most gracious thing that you could possibly say After someone's just ripped off a big scar and you had to reread it but from your ex wife's perspective That's that's hard.
I think to swallow. I think so, too.
Bhavna: Can I ask you a question? Yes. Yes, of course. You said that you know when you You, you have this feeling of there's pride, right? Like you wrote this memoir, I think it was a bestseller, sold really well, but there's also a little bit of embarrassment. I wonder, you know, [00:36:00] I, I saw Elizabeth Gilbert speak, um, gosh, years ago, years ago, and it was after, um, Big Magic came out, her book on creativity, and she was talking about Ypres Love, and she said, you know, as soon as the book was published, it ceased being my story.
It was everyone else's story. It wasn't mine anymore. You know, the movie is separate from me. Yes, Julia Roberts is playing me, but the movie is separate from me. And I thought that was really interesting. Like you, you sort of, it is your story, right? You protect it, you reveal all these things. You're so nervous about it.
Then it goes out in the world and you're probably still nervous about it a little bit, the response to it from family or exes or the people. And, but then the story morphs a little bit and it takes on this different form. And What was that experience like for you? Did you experience that, where, you know, your relationship
Jackie: to your story changed?
Yeah, for sure. And this is so funny because it's changed. and evolved [00:37:00] so much over so many different stages that I almost have to remember how it had evolved over the years. Okay, so what people don't know is the point at which you stop writing and it goes into printing and publication and, and um, PR and all that.
The point at which you stop writing, there's, there's a big gap between when you have to start talking about the book again. And so I was like, On to other things like this wasn't even on my radar anymore this book and it wasn't that I wasn't waiting to have this thing out there and really excited about it.
It's just like I kind of forgot that I'd written this book because it had been so long since it was on my docket. And then you realize that after you write it, because the process of writing it is the process of letting go of a lot of these stories. And so [00:38:00] after you write it, you detach from it a little bit because you do realize that it's going out into the world and it is no longer going to be your story because other people will read it.
And they will project and overlay their own experiences onto yours because you've written it in such a way where someone else is connecting with it and there's a unique chemistry that happens when someone reads a book that is uniquely their own. They have a personal history. With this book that you've written, that is not yours.
It's theirs. Well, it's sort of yours and theirs, but you, you, you're connected in that sort of way, but the relationship is theirs to hold. And you really see it when you start reading reviews. Yes. Which I think are If you want a really challenging yet super entertaining few hours, go and read the reviews on your Goodreads account.[00:39:00]
There is so much stuff on there. There's a lot. It is horrible. I mean, there's a lot that's amazing too, right? Of course. But there are people that are like, I don't know what this woman is, uh, complaining about. I'm going through cancer. That's hard. And you're like, wow. When you put something out there into the public, you cannot take it personally.
Yeah. A lot of these things that people are saying, because they really are coming at it with their own struggles, their own pains. There are people that are like, I can't believe she stayed in that relationship for so long. She has zero self respect, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. So much, so much stuff. And I'm like, why is this person so angry?
Because it must be triggering something, whether it's in her family's history, her history, [00:40:00] whatever it was. And so you realize that, yes, this book was something he wrote. But it is no longer your own, because people are, they're overlaying their own lives onto the words that you've written, and it becomes, in some cases, extremely beautiful, and in other cases, very ugly to some people, which is totally fine too.
It's okay. And you know that you've done something because you have written something that hits a nerve. It's
Bhavna: this, it's such a paradox of the whole vulnerability conversation, isn't it? That, you know, there can be this like beautiful payoff where you connect with people. I saw it. People wanted to like basically embrace you and say you changed my life.
This book changed my life. But then you also have. One, two, several different versions of your story that some, all of a sudden exist. And the vulnerability, the relationship to the vulnerability is really interesting. Like you need the [00:41:00] vulnerability to get to the story. But the vulnerability also has to sort of take a backseat or just have a really open understanding heart and say, this triggers something in them.
I hope it helps this person, but it may not. But then it's also something else. It's also, uh, you know, a book for someone else. And your vulnerability has to be really understanding in those positions. I just find it really interesting. It's a, it's an interesting paradox of. Becoming a writer and writing a book like
Jackie: yours.
Yeah. And I do remember preparing myself for that because I just remember prior to the book coming out, there was a video of me that got posted and got, went a little bit viral and it was about my life story and, and it was about how I opened a bakery and went to France and you know, did all those things.
And it was like a one minute, [00:42:00] two minute video, um, just about like living your dream. And I remember it got posted on Facebook and got all these comments. And someone had written something like, Oh, um, little do people know that her patty cake, like, hobby was being financed by her husband and he's having to work an extra job.
Which wasn't true, because we were divorced by then. And then another person goes, You don't know what you're talking about. She's never been married and never been in a relationship. And I was like, well, that's also not true, but thanks for, you know, having my back. And so you realize that like, everybody just says whatever they want and, and like nobody.
Nobody other than the people that really matter to you actually know, and we always consider the source of the feedback, which is, who is it that's saying this feedback? [00:43:00] How much do I trust their opinion of me? And we also understand that whoever's giving the feedback is giving it from their life perspective, so I'm not going to ask my mom if I'm dressed warmly enough, because she's always going to say no.
If I ask you, you'll be like, well, do you feel warm? Yeah. You know, like, it's just consider the source of who's giving you that information. And I have a group of people that I know I can trust that have my best interests at heart and that will give me the honest truth, but with love and with, um, the intention of raising me up.
I do, I do want to ask though, when your authors are feeling really stuck and they, There's obviously an emotional wall that they need to walk through and they, they can't like, how do you advise them to find the [00:44:00] bravery or the courage or just to get through?
Bhavna: I think something that I often say, I don't know, I'm a very kind of therapeutic individual and I believe that, you know, the experience of getting something out of you is quite cathartic.
It takes a certain amount, it's not my story, right? I can, I can talk about my own traumas and my own experiences, but that's me. Um, I think everyone has a different, it's all relative and everyone has different experiences. But one thing that I really encourage is when there's a situation like that, where there's almost a paralysis around.
You know, facing whatever that thing is where they're stuck or, you know, or we're feeling already this like non existent, it's still non existent judgment, you know, even for me, um, but what that truth is that, you know, needs to come out. One thing that I often tell people is it just needs to get out of you.
Doesn't mean it has to go in the book. If you decide that you don't [00:45:00] want it in the book, that is okay. Let's just get it out of you.
Jackie: That is. Such good advice. It's so crazy. Okay, so now I'm thinking about we, oh, I'm so nervous. I'm so nervous. So you and I are almost At the point where we're going to, okay, like, don't you love all these words that I'm putting before the actual thing I want to say because I don't want to say it.
I know. Okay.
Bhavna: We've known each other a long time. I'm trying to guess what you're about to say.
Jackie: Okay, so we're about to write a second book together, which I'm a little bit peeing my pants. Mm hmm. Not because of the writing the book part, but because I understand how much vulnerability, [00:46:00] vulnerability of unprocessed emotions and situations I'm going to have to write about.
And I think my greatest fear here is, what if I write this book? And I read it back, what if I don't like the person I see and really that's just like confronting all these things that haunt us like self loathing, self criticism. And I feel like I'm basically walking up to this Goliath of my own self esteem and I'm going to have to.
Pick up a stone and hit it right between its eyes, like I'm going to have to look at this thing. So it's, it's very vulnerable for me. I'm scared for sure. But I also, I don't know, what do you, I have nothing else to say about that. I'm
Bhavna: just scared. I remember, um, the year that your book came out, 2018. You [00:47:00] know, like I said, it was a success and everyone was asking you, what are you going to write next?
And you and I talked about it a lot and you were really reluctant. You were like, I want it to be the right book, you know, I don't know what it is yet. Maybe it's going to be like a design book or a lifestyle book. You were like thinking about a lot of stuff and years later, this was earlier this year, right?
May, maybe April, May that I finally got. A proposal for your second book years later, five years later. And I remember thinking she's ready. Now she's ready now. She's ready. She's ready. And I don't think that readiness has to be a hundred percent though. I don't think it does. I don't know if we're ever going to be a hundred percent ready.
I wasn't feeling a hundred percent ready, ready when I was about to have a baby or . I was about to become a wife. Like I didn't, I, I didn't feel a hundred percent. I felt a lot of the way there, [00:48:00] but I also. The thing that I know now after going through some like big life things is I will figure it out, perhaps with the help of other people, but I will figure it out.
So I understand why you're nervous about it, but I just remember thinking she waited five years, like she knows what this book is now. She knows what she wants it to be. Right?
Jackie: Yeah, and I never would put a proposal out there to you like this, especially Without having thought about what it means to write this book, too So just for the listener who doesn't know what this book is about.
It's essentially the podcast in In book form, uh, we're going to have readers or future readers submit questions and I will answer them in a sort of memoir style vignette and [00:49:00] I do remember when we first submitted this proposal to you, it was very much more a question answer and your response back was very I want more Jackie.
And I was like, okay, I knew you were going to say that. And I, I, it took a while for me to actually go, can I do this? Can I go back into memoir writing? Because I've always thought to myself, I don't think I have another memoir. I always said I need to wait until more things happen in my life. But what I realize is I don't need to wait until More exciting, writable things happen.
We're living every day and what we struggle with every single day, these mundane things or perceived as mundane things. Those are the things that people are living through and struggling with day after day after day. And they deserve a space to [00:50:00] be talked about, to be demystified, to be de shamed. Um, you know, even this feeling of like, am I good enough?
Like, if someone were to truly see me in these pages, in the in between, not in the happy share a croissant afterward. Mm hmm. Will they still like me? And I think that that's a very child like question, like, will you still love me if I am completely myself? Yeah. And I think that is the challenge of this book, which scares me, but also excites me, because it's yet another level of, self acceptance and self love exactly the way that I am.
Because if I can finish this book and I know at the end of it, I can say, I love myself more exactly as I am. Then the mission is sort of accomplished in a sense and whatever people take from it and the hope [00:51:00] is others would find that same level of self acceptance and self love through seeing themselves in my words and knowing that we are the same and that if I can love myself, so can you.
You can love you too. If that can happen for even one person, I think it's done. Like a mission accomplished. If people don't like it, none of my business. I'm going to show up and do the work. So yes, that's my own pep talk to me.
Bhavna: You were like this with the first book, like what was very You know, we started this conversation with me describing meeting you for the first time and you had these like singular life experiences that I couldn't even imagine.
But I think what you do that a lot of people can't do is you make these incredibly unique experiences in your life so universal. And just the fact that you're inviting people to submit questions and you will write about your, like, center your own [00:52:00] experience. In answering those questions just demonstrates how universal the experience of being human is right at the end of the day.
That's what it is. It's just the experience of living and being a human being in the world today. I think it's just such a beautiful way to connect to people. I really
Jackie: do. Yeah, the thing that makes me the most fulfilled. about doing this podcast and also with writing this next book is the idea that not only can I connect to people, but that every reader can then look to the person next to them and know that they can connect to that person too.
There's a like a level of empathy that is created with this. Thank you so, so much for joining me in this, in this episode. It's such a pleasure to see you as always. And you are so wise and you have so much [00:53:00] great advice and yeah, I just really appreciate you so much. Oh,
Bhavna: I appreciate you. I feel very lucky to know you and to work with you.
And so I hope this was helpful and I'm very happy to answer other questions. I think we could have talked for hours.
Jackie: I think so too.
LETTER TO THE ASKER:
A Letter from Jackie
To You Who Wonders,
I believe that the power of a person’s story is in its vulnerability. We connect with stories that are honest and true — ones where the deepest sorrows reflect our own, ones where revealing shame diffuses its power, and ones where we celebrate the author’s greatest triumphs, because they could very well be our own stories one day. I wrote my memoir, THE MEASURE OF MY POWERS, in hopes that, through telling my story, someone would recognize themselves in it. That they would see the depths of my sadness and relate to it; feel my frailty and realize they are not alone; and know it is possible to find courage, as I did.
In the memoir, there is an unplanned chapter that was written spontaneously for a friend who was struggling with a life change. I wanted to alleviate his fear, speak to his longing for a different life. I wanted him to know that I’d had those same fears and longings before. As I watched him wonder if he should finally accept the death of a dream he’d had for so long, knowing it was a crossroads so many of us have experienced or will at some point, I wrote the chapter The Letter. That chapter spoke of the anxieties of the unknown, the deepest yearnings for joy in life, the courage to step out, again and again because we know “joy often comes from choosing the things that bring you joy.”
This chapter is one that readers have dog-eared, underlined, and even quoted back to me. I, myself, have gone back to this letter over the years, when I’ve found myself lost again, needing some advice.
Now, I am not an expert in relationships, in careers, or in mental health. Though because of that letter, and because I shared my most vulnerable stories in the memoir, I have often been stopped by strangers who read them and saw themselves. The moment we talk, emotions naturally surface — because in the moments they were struggling with the deadening loneliness of their own depression, I was with them in the safe space of the book. When their hearts were broken, mine was, too. Within the intimate pages of our shared experiences, they realized they were not alone.
Because of my memoir, strangers have reached out asking about their biggest anxieties, their greatest longings, their saddest memories. It’s what inspired my advice column, my podcast, You & I, and what inspired TO YOU, WHO WONDERS. Answering your questions gives me immeasurable joy because I have the unique privilege of holding your most private questions, questions we all have—about the unknown, about finding love, about losing love, about wanting love, about wanting something different. Reading them (and writing them) is a beautiful reminder of our shared humanity—that we are all not so different from each other, and that one story told with vulnerability can help others see a more compassionate version of their own.
I’d like to say that writing about these questions has helped someone out there. I hope this dearly. But in reality, we do the work we, ourselves, need most. Since the advice column and podcast began, the words I’ve written to you have lived in my head and heart in the moments I needed them most. In the moments of greatest doubt and shame…when a mean voice enters and asks me, “are you good enough? Strong enough? Have you done enough? Are you enough?” The very words I wrote to you about compassion, empathy, urging kindness and gentleness to self, those very words answered this mean voice, stood up for me, and silenced it. In truth, I hope what I have written has helped to heal you, as much as it has helped to heal me.
And so it would be my greatest pleasure to explore your questions for this upcoming book. Whether it be life or love, relationships or career, anything from purpose and belonging, to motherhood and identity, send in questions on whatever is keeping you up at night.
I know, being vulnerable is hard; it doesn’t feel natural. We all hide what we think are our flaws, out of fear, and sharing these very things can feel counterintuitive. Though, the moment we find the courage to ask the question, to say “I don’t know,’ we realize that we are all asking the very same questions.
Because we question aloud, we give courage to others to voice the things we have wondered in silence.
The hope for To You Who Wonders, is that we find solace, and find ourselves – our pains, joys, our grief and triumphs – in its pages. The hope is that we find understanding, acceptance and compassion, not only when reading the stories of others, but also while we are writing our own.
And I want readers to know that the stories don’t just end at the end of a book. The truth is, that life lessons are learnt and re-learnt for as long as we live. By sharing my struggles since my first memoir – with continued depression, with feeling paralyzed by the next steps in life, with the constant healing that occurs like a slow peeling back of layers – I want readers to know that no matter where they are, no matter how many times they’ve felt stuck, that they are not alone in that too, and maybe find a deep acceptance of our undulating journey.
END:
thank you Bhavna, for sharing your wisdom with us today and Thank you in advance for submitting your questions. You can do so at toyouwhowonders.com
And thank you for your question, Dallas. I hope you got something helpful out of this…if anything, know that you’re not alone. You see, we all struggle, mourn, yearn, question, laugh and cry. No matter our age, background, or titles, at our core, we are all not so different, You & I.
TEASE NEXT MONTH’S Q:
How do I overcome imposter syndrome?
OUTRO: [music]
If you feel inspired to respond to this asker and are interested in being a guest of this episode, OR if you have a short word of wisdom for them, write to us on the contact page on youandipodcast.com or DM us on instagram at @youandi (DOT) podcast. And of course, please submit your questions there too.
If you enjoyed this episode, like and subscribe to our channel, which helps others who might be interested, find us. And feel free to share this episode with someone who may find it helpful as well. Thank you for joining us today. I’m Jackie Kai Ellis, and here are some words of wisdom.
WORDS OF WISDOM [music continued]
2-3 sound bites of people giving a little advice (1 min each)